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#22 ·
T-88 said:
German engineering is different than Japanese engineering (just like German and Japanese engineering is different than American engineering.)

Anybody who is a car enthusiast and enjoys driving knows a Volkswagen, BMW, Audi or Mercedes DRIVES differently than a Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Lexus. And those same German cars drive differently than Chevs, Fords and Mopars.

As for the reliability of BMW vs Honda motorcycles (or their cars), Honda will win hands down every time. Having said that, my ‘14 BMW R120RT only required regular maintenance and never failed me, and most of my friends ride BMWs (and the put on typically 20,000 km a year), and none have had reliability issues or unexpected failures.

So you might as well ask the same question in the auto industry. . . howcum Japanese branded cars usually score higher in reliability than American brands? What’s the difference between American auto engineering and Japanese auto engineering?

Tim
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Or you could ask USA v. Canadian vehicles. Not sure about modern stuff, but I've been a Studebaker driver for decades, and know them well. At one time, Studes were built in SB Indiana, LA California, and Hamilton Ontario, and there was difference in quality among all three plants. IMHO, the Canadian built Studes were, by far, the best.

I think it has to do with attitude and motivation of the worker bees, and of course a drug free work environment helps. USA taught TQL (Total Quality Leadership) to the Japanese labor industry after WW2, then forgot it ourselves, and now we're taking notes from the Japanese.
 
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#24 ·
spummerr said:
BMW's might be ok, but when they break the cost of fixing them can bankrupt you
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And fixing Honda Gold Wings is cheap?

Haven’t there recently been long threads bemoaning the cost of replacing the ‘18+ Wing’s headlight assembly should one be damaged by road debris??

Yes, the cost of repairing a BMW can be painfully expensive. But I expect the cost of repairing an ‘18+ Wing would inflict a very similar level of pain.

Interesting factoid: I recently ordered an OEM BMW aux light bracket; it was a high quality, injection molded plastic plate that mounts under the beak of a ‘23 BMW R1250 GS. The BMW mounting bracket was CHEAPER than the Denali “universal” fit metal L brackets. Go figure.

Tim
 
#25 ·
Reliability is king, followed by cost/affordability.

To me, Japanese has what it takes on all category.

I ride a Goldwing, albeit older, but still reliable.

We drive a Toyota, 2016 Tundra double cab that still looks new.

A 2021 Camry SE that I bought for my wife, still is new(to us).

Even if we can afford BMW or Mercedes, we'd still buy Toyota cars/truck and a Honda bike.
 
#26 ·
Kodiak536 said:
Reliability is king, followed by cost/affordability.

To me, Japanese has what it takes on all category.

I ride a Goldwing, albeit older, but still reliable.

We drive a Toyota, 2016 Tundra double cab that still looks new.

A 2021 Camry SE that I bought for my wife, still is new(to us).

Even if we can afford BMW or Mercedes, we'd still buy Toyota cars/truck and a Honda bike.
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Food for thought. . . here is JD Power’s 2022 auto dependability report.


Honda is the poorest rated of all the Asian auto brands, well near the bottom of the list.

Highest rated brand? Kia. Highest rated German brand? Porsche.

BMW, Mercedes and Audi all beat out some Japanese brands.

Interesting stuff for debate. Is the JD Power dependability report on auto production applicable to the motorcycle industry? Maybe. Maybe not.

The report does broaden the discussion of German vs Japanese engineering, though.

Tim
 
#27 ·
JoeHall said:
Or you could ask USA v. Canadian vehicles. Not sure about modern stuff, but I've been a Studebaker driver for decades, and know them well. At one time, Studes were built in SB Indiana, LA California, and Hamilton Ontario, and there was difference in quality among all three plants. IMHO, the Canadian built Studes were, by far, the best.

I think it has to do with attitude and motivation of the worker bees, and of course a drug free work environment helps. USA taught TQL (Total Quality Leadership) to the Japanese labor industry after WW2, then forgot it ourselves, and now we're taking notes from the Japanese.
Click to expand...
You hit the nail on the head. Quality control.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
T-88 said:
Food for thought. . . here is JD Power’s 2022 auto dependability report.


Honda is the poorest rated of all the Asian auto brands, well near the bottom of the list.

Highest rated brand? Kia. Highest rated German brand? Porsche.

BMW, Mercedes and Audi all beat out some Japanese brands.

Interesting stuff for debate. Is the JD Power dependability report on auto production applicable to the motorcycle industry? Maybe. Maybe not.

The report does broaden the discussion of German vs Japanese engineering, though.

Tim
Click to expand...
That seems to be concentrating mostly on electrical issues (infotainment systems, etc) even though it does mention mechanical being included. If they did a study on just engines, I would bet the house that Honda would be up near the top along with toyota. But, that report includes auto. Toyota does not make motorcycles. I believe a lot of these reports are flawed anyway. In today's corrupt world, money talks and manufacturers can pay $ to be near the top in standings. The proof is in your own eyes. What do you see out there mostly? IDK about you guys, but I see tons of old Hondas and toyotas (strictly speaking cars). Civics, accords, camrys, corollas, etc
 
#29 ·
cc rider said:
That seems to be concentrating mostly on electrical issues (infotainment systems, etc) even though it does mention mechanical being included. If they did a study on just engines, I would bet the house that Honda would be up near the top along with toyota. But, that report includes auto. Toyota does not make motorcycles. I believe a lot of these reports are flawed anyway. In today's corrupt world, money talks and manufacturers can pay $ to be near the top in standings. The proof is in your own eyes. What do you see out there mostly? IDK about you guys, but I see tons of old Hondas and toyotas (strictly speaking cars). Civics, accords, camrys, corollas, etc
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The report is only one data point for informed consumers. . . I agree that it is not indicative of long term reliability; the report clearly states it’s a measure of Problems Per 100 vehicles.

The report IS indicative of the issue of Quality Control, as a previous poster mentioned.

Even though I drive a 6 year old Audi (trouble free since new) and now ride a ‘23 BMW R1250 GS, I too am a strong proponent of the superiority of Japanese long term reliability over German manufacturers.

As a former freelance writer reviewing new cars for Canada’s largest newspaper chain, I invariably recommend Hondas and Toyotas to the vast majority of normal folks shopping for new and used vehicles.

For the small number of driving enthusiasts, the short list is usually populated with German brands.

Tim
 
#30 ·
T-88 said:
The report is only one data point for informed consumers. . . I agree that it is not indicative of long term reliability; the report clearly states it’s a measure of Problems Per 100 vehicles.

The report IS indicative of the issue of Quality Control, as a previous poster mentioned.

Even though I drive a 6 year old Audi (trouble free since new) and now ride a ‘23 BMW R1250 GS, I too am a strong proponent of the superiority of Japanese long term reliability over German manufacturers.

As a former freelance writer reviewing new cars for Canada’s largest newspaper chain, I invariably recommend Hondas and Toyotas to the vast majority of normal folks shopping for new and used vehicles.

For the small number of driving enthusiasts, the short list is usually populated with German brands.

Tim
Click to expand...
Your points are well taken. On the automotive side, recently traded my 10 y.o. Toyota 4Runner after years of bullet proof reliability for a more genteel Highlander Limited. Just got tired of the same old same old. The dealer had the 4Runner re-sold (without even washing it) while I was completing paperwork on the new vehicle. Reputations are earned from consumer experience.
 
#31 · (Edited)
cc rider said:
That seems to be concentrating mostly on electrical issues (infotainment systems, etc) even though it does mention mechanical being included. If they did a study on just engines, I would bet the house that Honda would be up near the top along with toyota. But, that report includes auto. Toyota does not make motorcycles. I believe a lot of these reports are flawed anyway. In today's corrupt world, money talks and manufacturers can pay $ to be near the top in standings. The proof is in your own eyes. What do you see out there mostly? IDK about you guys, but I see tons of old Hondas and toyotas (strictly speaking cars). Civics, accords, camrys, corollas, etc
Click to expand...
Exactly right, most reported problems do have something to do with the bike/cars electronics. RF, key and fob issues, immobilizers, infotainment system which in many cases contains vehicles security all can leave you stranded. No matter how good a vehicles drive train is, it is immaterial if you can't get it started. It all goes against vehicle reliability.
 
#32 ·
cc rider said:
That seems to be concentrating mostly on electrical issues (infotainment systems, etc) even though it does mention mechanical being included. If they did a study on just engines, I would bet the house that Honda would be up near the top along with toyota. But, that report includes auto. Toyota does not make motorcycles. I believe a lot of these reports are flawed anyway. In today's corrupt world, money talks and manufacturers can pay $ to be near the top in standings. The proof is in your own eyes. What do you see out there mostly? IDK about you guys, but I see tons of old Hondas and toyotas (strictly speaking cars). Civics, accords, camrys, corollas, etc
Click to expand...
A lot of what you see is because of the sheer number of units sold when new. Camry and Accord were best selling models for many years aside from them being reliable vehicles.
 
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#33 ·
T-88 said:
German engineering is different than Japanese engineering (just like German and Japanese engineering is different than American engineering.)

Anybody who is a car enthusiast and enjoys driving knows a Volkswagen, BMW, Audi or Mercedes DRIVES differently than a Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Lexus. And those same German cars drive differently than Chevs, Fords and Mopars.

As for the reliability of BMW vs Honda motorcycles (or their cars), Honda will win hands down every time. Having said that, my ‘14 BMW R120RT only required regular maintenance and never failed me, and most of my friends ride BMWs (and the put on typically 20,000 km a year), and none have had reliability issues or unexpected failures.

So you might as well ask the same question in the auto industry. . . howcum Japanese branded cars usually score higher in reliability than American brands? What’s the difference between American auto engineering and Japanese auto engineering?

Tim
Click to expand...
Corporate mentality, US companies only think about this year’s profits, Japanese companies are looking at this year’s and many years down the road.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I don't think you can generalize as far as German vs Japanese Engineering or even particular Brand Engineering. There are a lot of decisions as to pricing a product for the target market and those decisions dictate what Engineering can do/spend. Another factor greatly affecting reliability is the extent to which the vehicle uses recent technology. A lot of issues are now electronics based because most consumers want all the features. One more factor is in the quantity of the model sold. For instance, Honda has sold over 20 million Honda Civics and in the US in 2017 alone Honda sold 317,000 Civics. That provides the company with a lot of feedback as to what can be improved based on the target market and price point.
 
#35 ·
#36 ·
dduelin said:
Post 2000 reliability data?

I didn't research the methodology beyond what is presented in the tables.

www.webbikeworld.com

The Safety Specs Series: Episode 1 - "How Reliable is My Bike Brand?” - webBikeWorld

Today’s bike safety question comes courtesy of the fantastic research archived by Riders Share. Read on to learn more.
www.webbikeworld.com
Click to expand...
Table of how often a bike brand gets towed with data derived from motorcycle rental company. Reminds me of the old data sage: "garbage in garbage out." The young author apparently needs a new dress.
 
#37 ·
FL_RedWing said:
Table of how often a bike brand gets towed with data derived from motorcycle rental company. Reminds me of the old data sage: "garbage in garbage out." The young author apparently needs a new dress.
Click to expand...
Presented for entertainment only. I suppose it’s about as accurate as owners reporting repairs from 2008 to 2015.
 
#38 ·
The entire sting reminds me of the movie Gung Ho. Yes it was a comedy movie but it was based on a can't do attitude of the US car market in the 70s up to the early 80s. I think quality control has improved since then. From research I've done quality control in Japan culture is to the point that anyone in an assembly plant can stop production if they notice a repeated defect; the same action would probably make coworkers into enemies in Western cultures.

Is anyone familiar with Deming's 14 points of Total Quality Management? I don't know which is more profound, the 14 Key Principles or the 7 deadly diseases. Both are outlined in the link below. It's funny that post war Japan would use a Western consultant to achieve quality results. The USA auto industry had their Eureka moment over a decade later.

W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia

But, just to keep it light, enjoy a few minutes of Gung Ho where a Japanese auto maker comes to the US to take over an unproductive US auto plan. 5:00-5:40 actually is kind of funny.

Last Scenes and End Credits "Gung Ho (1986)" - YouTube

As for German engineering, anyone ever play the game Mouse Trap? I always think of Rube Goldberg machines at the same time (although some of the competition in this endeavor is kind of fun to watch).

Rube Goldberg machine - Wikipedia
 
#39 ·
biggersm said:
The entire sting reminds me of the movie Gung Ho. Yes it was a comedy movie but it was based on a can't do attitude of the US car market in the 70s up to the early 80s. I think quality control has improved since then. From research I've done quality control in Japan culture is to the point that anyone in an assembly plant can stop production if they notice a repeated defect; the same action would probably make coworkers into enemies in Western cultures.

Is anyone familiar with Deming's 14 points of Total Quality Management? I don't know which is more profound, the 14 Key Principles or the 7 deadly diseases. Both are outlined in the link below. It's funny that post war Japan would use a Western consultant to achieve quality results. The USA auto industry had their Eureka moment over a decade later.

W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia

But, just to keep it light, enjoy a few minutes of Gung Ho where a Japanese auto maker comes to the US to take over an unproductive US auto plan. 5:00-5:40 actually is kind of funny.

Last Scenes and End Credits "Gung Ho (1986)" - YouTube

As for German engineering, anyone ever play the game Mouse Trap? I always think of Rube Goldberg machines at the same time (although some of the competition in this endeavor is kind of fun to watch).

Rube Goldberg machine - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
I actually worked with the FIRST company outside of Japan to win the Deming Award in 1989. I worked with the New Things Learned Team compiling, analyzing, and presentation development of data along with a fellow employee. It was one of the best times with the company. Both of us would arrive at the facility where the presentations were to be presented to the Japanese Union of Scientist and Engineers, setup our computers, monitors, and multiple printers - and back then there wasn't any flat monitor screens!

When the award was presented I retired at the end of the year - it was a great experience but it was also a very exhausting time. I had to sometimes know the manager or supervisor area of responsibility better than they did so I could recognize if their data gathering and data analysis was truly quality directed or justification of current area operations.
 
#40 ·
What car is German designed, French owned, Mexican powered, Canadian built and thought to be genuine American muscle? The Dodge Challenger I just sold.
It was designed by Daimler: a German company.
The company was now owned by Fiat, a French company.
The motor was assembled in Mexico.
The car was assembled in Brampton, Ontario.
Glad they imported it here so I could buy something "American made."
 
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