[ssncob]

Might have a sticking valve but the compression numbers don't indicate that. Good compression and within +- 10% of each other 👍

Although he said he had fire (spark), plugs 'might' be bad (not all of them at least). However, the fact that starting fluid actually bogs things down indicates either he's flooding it with fluid, or he actually has a weak spark blowing out under compression. For as cheap as plugs are I personally would replace them and see what happens next.

Classic start with simple things, minimize the variables you're working with and move up the troubleshooting ladder. Also, do make sure the right coils are going to the right cylinders. Hard to boo-boo that but I have seen it once.

 

[Tubemkr]

Might have a sticking valve but the compression numbers don't indicate that. Good compression and within +- 10% of each other 👍

Although he said he had fire (spark), plugs 'might' be bad (not all of them at least). However, the fact that starting fluid actually bogs things down indicates either he's flooding it with fluid, or he actually has a weak spark blowing out under compression. For as cheap as plugs are I personally would replace them and see what happens next.

Classic start with simple things, minimize the variables you're working with and move up the troubleshooting ladder. Also, do make sure the right coils are going to the right cylinders. Hard to boo-boo that but I have seen it once.

I did wonder about the plugs firing when under compression as well. An old Kawasaki KX I had back in the day would do that trick every so often. Plug would foul and refuse to fire under compression but would fire outside the cylinder. I did notice the plugs were not factory. These are something with a logo that’s an ‘E’ that is slightly italicized and possibly inside a block that has rounded corners. I’ll research to see what they are, but they have an unconventional style ground strap arrangement over a pretty standard electrode. I am confident there is no flooding going on with fuel or starting fluid. Even a 1/4 second or less jet into the air box completely stops it from hitting. I’ll report back on the plug type when I find them.
Edit to add:
I found the brand online for the spark plugs. They are E3. Seem gimmicky to me. Probably will replace them with an iridium plug. I did check out the plug wires/coils to be sure nothing was crossed up. The 3 from the left coil are for the left bank of cylinders and the right side coil does go to the three right side cylinders. The plug wires (they are banded with the cylinder number) do terminate at the appropriate cylinder. Tomorrow I will verify that they are correctly arranged at the coil end.

 

[techdude2000]

I can do that. I had thought valves sticking, which is why I ran the compression test on it. If you think that is still a possibility, I’ll do it.
I was able to look back on the texts between my dad and myself before he died, and found the mileage on the bike. 10,594.

Shoot! Never mind, I missed your compression test. Reading comprehension and old age doesn’t mix! ☺ Did you guys ever change the sparkplug wires or the coils? Have you double checked the MAP sensor and TPS sensor plugs, they can be mixed up.

 

[techdude2000]

I did wonder about the plugs firing when under compression as well. An old Kawasaki KX I had back in the day would do that trick every so often. Plug would foul and refuse to fire under compression but would fire outside the cylinder. I did notice the plugs were not factory. These are something with a logo that’s an ‘E’ that is slightly italicized and possibly inside a block that has rounded corners. I’ll research to see what they are, but they have an unconventional style ground strap arrangement over a pretty standard electrode. I am confident there is no flooding going on with fuel or starting fluid. Even a 1/4 second or less jet into the air box completely stops it from hitting. I’ll report back on the plug type when I find them.
Edit to add:
I found the brand online for the spark plugs. They are E3. Seem gimmicky to me. Probably will replace them with an iridium plug. I did check out the plug wires/coils to be sure nothing was crossed up. The 3 from the left coil are for the left bank of cylinders and the right side coil does go to the three right side cylinders. The plug wires (they are banded with the cylinder number) do terminate at the appropriate cylinder. Tomorrow I will verify that they are correctly arranged at the coil end.

You should have three coils with a plug wire going to each bank from each coil. It’s a wasted spark system where each plug shares a coil with a plug from the opposite bank. Trash those E3 plugs, have heard of many problems with them. I would go with the factory standard plug. I think the Iridium’s are not worth the money.

 

[ssncob]

Agree with no iridium, just standard plugs. Have been some reports of issues with iridium of hesitation, etc. Be aware of fake NGK plugs, buy from reputable sources. As techdude indicated, each coil goes to both sides.

 

[judgedredd331]

Be aware of fake NGK plugs, buy from reputable sources

This is quite a real concern. I wasn't aware of this until I read about it on this board and did some research. No Amazon, parts store for me after reading about it.

 

[Tubemkr]

You should have three coils with a plug wire going to each bank from each coil. It’s a wasted spark system where each plug shares a coil with a plug from the opposite bank. Trash those E3 plugs, have heard of many problems with them. I would go with the factory standard plug. I think the Iridium’s are not worth the money.

I’m going to have to look at the coils more closely. I know we haven’t monkeyed with them, but that doesn’t mean the original owners son in law didnt. Today I will get a set of plugs (non iridium) and try that. I did look at the sensor which attaches by where the throttle cables are, but in that part of the harness I wasn’t able to locate any other plugs that would swap to it. There was a similar plug that was buried in the center just in front of the fuel cell. I thought it had less wires than the other sensor. It’s possible I wasn’t even looking at the correct sensor. Will revisit that tonight after work as well as using a better battery. Plug wires appear to be factory, as do the coil packs.

 

[Tubemkr]

Today’s update:
Battery had been on charge for a couple days. Attempted to install new spark plugs but the counter guy apparently gave me the wrong plugs as these have larger hex he’d and does not allow room for any socket I have to fit into the counterbored area around the plug. 🤦🏼‍♂️ So I grabbed a propane torch and heated up the three plugs on the left side and reinstalled them. On a whim I hit the start button and it fired up. Definitely has a miss but would run and rev. Pulled all plugs and looked at them. 5 were very clean and one was black and soot covered. Will exchange the plugs for the ones I told the guy I wanted to begin with. I let it run till the temperature gauge leveled out and shut it off when I saw that the exhausts were HOT. It had some sort of flammable debris inside the pipes that would blow out now and then.

 

[techdude2000]

Today’s update:
Battery had been on charge for a couple days. Attempted to install new spark plugs but the counter guy apparently gave me the wrong plugs as these have larger hex he’d and does not allow room for any socket I have to fit into the counterbored area around the plug. 🤦🏼‍♂️ So I grabbed a propane torch and heated up the three plugs on the left side and reinstalled them. On a whim I hit the start button and it fired up. Definitely has a miss but would run and rev. Pulled all plugs and looked at them. 5 were very clean and one was black and soot covered. Will exchange the plugs for the ones I told the guy I wanted to begin with. I let it run till the temperature gauge leveled out and shut it off when I saw that the exhausts were HOT. It had some sort of flammable debris inside the pipes that would blow out now and then.

Great! Any improvement is a good thing. Probably mouse nesting stuff in the pipes. At least they didn’t plug them up.

 

[Tubemkr]

Great! Any improvement is a good thing. Probably mouse nesting stuff in the pipes. At least they didn’t plug them up.

I really hate that I got the pipes so warm. I’m guessing it is because I held the throttle open a bit and it running lean. I trickled a little water around the pipes to cool adjacent parts just in case. It still concerns me that it may not be fueling properly at all cylinders and the seemingly advanced ignition timing. That was really only evident at low rpm (which is what prompted me to crack the throttle a little.) We will see what the correct plugs bring, but if I’m being honest, I don’t have high hopes that the miss will go away. It did not give me a CEL/MIL either, which I expected with the miss. I know it is getting spark from the coils to every cylinder, but a wet plug fires easier than a dry one which lets a computer see a different value of resistance at that plug, something outside of an expected range, and in turn triggers a CEL/MIL. I’m not sure how Honda does it though.

 

[judgedredd331]

Today’s update:
Battery had been on charge for a couple days. Attempted to install new spark plugs but the counter guy apparently gave me the wrong plugs as these have larger hex he’d and does not allow room for any socket I have to fit into the counterbored area around the plug. 🤦🏼‍♂️ So I grabbed a propane torch and heated up the three plugs on the left side and reinstalled them. On a whim I hit the start button and it fired up. Definitely has a miss but would run and rev. Pulled all plugs and looked at them. 5 were very clean and one was black and soot covered. Will exchange the plugs for the ones I told the guy I wanted to begin with. I let it run till the temperature gauge leveled out and shut it off when I saw that the exhausts were HOT. It had some sort of flammable debris inside the pipes that would blow out now and then.

Been following this thread. Glad to hear it is running, WTG. The OEM plugs are NGK BKR6E-11. When I changed plugs on current Wing last time I asked for those at Advanced Auto parts. The guy asked me what I was putting them in. I told him my Wing information and he told me I needed some other NGK plug per their computer. Almost had to argue with him to actually get what plugs I wanted.

 

[Tubemkr]

Been following this thread. Glad to hear it is running, WTG. The OEM plugs are NGK BKR6E-11. When I changed plugs on current Wing last time I asked for those at Advanced Auto parts. The guy asked me what I was putting them in. I told him my Wing information and he told me I needed some other NGK plug per their computer. Almost had to argue with him to actually get what plugs I wanted.

That’s kinda how the O’Reilly experience went today but I was unfortunately not in the mood to argue with the dude. That will change tomorrow. I’m really hoping the correct/new plugs smooth this thing out and there are no other problems to deal with. For one reason or other, I really expect I’ll have to purchase injectors or get these cleaned. It just seems by the way it’s running that there is more than just lame spark plugs going on.

 

[CoyoteWing]

How old is the gas? I didn't notice any mention of draining out old fuel and adding fresh fuel. I would also run at least one tankful of your favorite injector cleaner through it once you get a chance to ride it. Partially clogged injectors can make it run lean.

 

[Tubemkr]

How old is the gas? I didn't notice any mention of draining out old fuel and adding fresh fuel. I would also run at least one tankful of your favorite injector cleaner through it once you get a chance to ride it. Partially clogged injectors can make it run lean.

Fuel is new. The stuff in the tank from original owner had turned to a real mess. We cleaned the tank till it was spotless. I added some Seafoam in with the new fuel to help clean fuel lines and injectors. That’s been at least a week ago. I know that the fuel lines and injectors were not removed and could be problematic. I assume the bike has right and left 02 sensors and probably cats. It may not have the ability to accommodate much adjustment for a lean condition. That’s likely why the exhaust got so hot.

 

[techdude2000]

I really hate that I got the pipes so warm. I’m guessing it is because I held the throttle open a bit and it running lean. I trickled a little water around the pipes to cool adjacent parts just in case. It still concerns me that it may not be fueling properly at all cylinders and the seemingly advanced ignition timing. That was really only evident at low rpm (which is what prompted me to crack the throttle a little.) We will see what the correct plugs bring, but if I’m being honest, I don’t have high hopes that the miss will go away. It did not give me a CEL/MIL either, which I expected with the miss. I know it is getting spark from the coils to every cylinder, but a wet plug fires easier than a dry one which lets a computer see a different value of resistance at that plug, something outside of an expected range, and in turn triggers a CEL/MIL. I’m not sure how Honda does it though.

The wing’s ECM isn’t that smart. It has no idea if there’s a miss. The system has a baro sensor for altitude and air density compensation as well as a map sensor for intake vacuum. The system will throw a code if the O2 sensors tell the ECM the emissions are out of range. Usually the plugs will be a little carboned up due to Honda’s idle and low rpm mixture. You could have an issue with the PAIR system. If the fresh air solenoid sticks open or is open when it shouldn’t be, the exhaust will be lean and you will get some backfiring.

 

[Tubemkr]

The wing’s ECM isn’t that smart. It has no idea if there’s a miss. The system has a baro sensor for altitude and air density compensation as well as a map sensor for intake vacuum. The system will throw a code if the O2 sensors tell the ECM the emissions are out of range. Usually the plugs will be a little carboned up due to Honda’s idle and low rpm mixture. You could have an issue with the PAIR system. If the fresh air solenoid sticks open or is open when it shouldn’t be, the exhaust will be lean and you will get some backfiring.

I am rather surprised the ECM doesn’t do that on the Wing. My 04 Dyna Wide would detect a miss and throw a service light. So, is this PAIR valve something I need to worry with right now?

 

[Va Winger]

How much Seafoam did you put in the fuel? If the concentration is too heavy, that can cause it to run poorly. I went through this with my father in law. He dumped way too much Seafoam in his bike to “clean things out” and it ran very lean as if a jet was clogged which it wasn’t. He kept adding more as he thought he had a clogged jet. The more he added, the worse it ran. We got that fuel out of the tank and replaced it with new fuel an it immediately ran as it should.

 

[Tubemkr]

How much Seafoam did you put in the fuel? If the concentration is too heavy, that can cause it to run poorly. I went through this with my father in law. He dumped way too much Seafoam in his bike to “clean things out” and it ran very lean as if a jet was clogged which it wasn’t. He kept adding more as he thought he had a clogged jet. The more he added, the worse it ran. We got that fuel out of the tank and replaced it with new fuel an it immediately ran as it should.

Well, that’s a great point! It was nearly half a small can in 5 gallons of fuel. Surely it’s done all it is going to clean by now and swapping it out with untreated fuel would be good. I’ll get the spark plugs swapped out and installed this evening after work and fire it up again to see how it does.

 

[techdude2000]

I am rather surprised the ECM doesn’t do that on the Wing. My 04 Dyna Wide would detect a miss and throw a service light. So, is this PAIR valve something I need to worry with right now?

Only if it runs badly with the correct plugs. A lean condition in the exhaust will trick the ECM into thinking the fuel is not enough and it will add fuel to get a good O2 reading. This will make it run rich and create a lot of carbon on the valves and plugs. Plus the gas mileage will be down and you get the backfiring when decelerating. The solenoid is under the front of the air box and has a rubber hose that is connected to the bottom of the air box as well. For the ECM to detect a cylinder miss would mean it has to run an algorithm detecting timing shifts between power pulses. Honda decided that was too much work for it with 6 cylinders.

 

[Tubemkr]

Only if it runs badly with the correct plugs. A lean condition in the exhaust will trick the ECM into thinking the fuel is not enough and it will add fuel to get a good O2 reading. This will make it run rich and create a lot of carbon on the valves and plugs. Plus the gas mileage will be down and you get the backfiring when decelerating. The solenoid is under the front of the air box and has a rubber hose that is connected to the bottom of the air box as well. For the ECM to detect a cylinder miss would mean it has to run an algorithm detecting timing shifts between power pulses. Honda decided that was too much work for it with 6 cylinders.

Looks like I’m going to remove the air box tomorrow and get a better looks the the tps and map sensor wires and that PAIR solenoid. New correct NGK plugs were no different than the old ones. Still fires up and runs like the ignition timing is too far advanced. I am somewhat puzzled about something though. I have been looking for the tps/map sensors but wasn’t locating the tps sensor. I I figured out why that was the case. There is a sensor on top of the filter box to the right. It is marked MAP and is right by a part that has throttle cables coming out of it. Does it have 2 MAP sensors, with the second being below the air box? There is definitely no other similar connector nearby that it could be swapped with. I’m thoroughly confused about it now.