[GoldWingrGreg]

This one was repaired at dealer 20,000 miles ago. It now has 40,000 on the bike and needs repair again. I snapped the first pix just as I was walking out the door and believe that is 2nd gear on the main shaft. In that pix I am trying to show how the dog is rounded on the acceleration side as well as the deceleration side. I have not seen one like that yet. The 2nd one is a broken dog from the center of the pix and the dog is laying at the left in the bottom of the case. 3rd is more loose metal particals laying in the bottom of the case. 4th is gear damage in the center. 5th is metal in the upper most part of the rear case where the starter attaches. I saw that as I was taking out that bolt. This tranny damage is the worst I have seen. I will know more Monday after I take the gears to the tranny shop for a visual. I won't get a final report until they are magnafluxed in 3-4 weeks. Who ever assembled this motor didn't know that there is a differance between a 2001-05 and a 2006 and above. You really have to study these thing and pay attention to know, but that had nothing to do with the cause of this failure. It would have been nice too, if he wouldn't have over tightened the clutch basket nut so tight ... I had to cut it off with a torch. He must have been the one in the shop that bragged about having the biggest baddest impact tool. None, even at the Ford dealer down the steet could remove. I didn't have access to a 1" drive impact ... maybe the one that installed it did. The torque spec is 137 ft/lbs.

 

[Biker John]

Thanks for the pictures Greg.
Hopefully there will be a lot more.

 

[Rocky]

That's not destroyed,That is Minor damage.:thumbup:

Destroyed is when ALL transmission gears/shafts and cases need to be replaced!

As for the Clutch nut,Maybe the guy was out of thread locker that day and didn't want the nut to come loose.:shrug:


You have to wonder how many people would sell their wings if Every Mechanic out there posted about every transmission they repair in their shop?.4:

This topic is like folks on the general board that think we WANT to hear about a motorcycle death.
We all know that not all people Die on a motorcycle.The same goes for Not All Transmissions in GL1800's have issues! a very small percentage of units built will ever have trouble.

I have a friend with a 05 w/132K and has never had "1" thing replaced..
He's never changed his coolant.

The helmet store must be making a killin,A larger helmet each week.4:

 

[31261]

Hum?

You know, I have had my moments on a bike. I have done every stupid thing possible I think at one time or the other.

I used to have a Harley, (several in fact) and those things were bad about jumping out of gear sometimes. Or you would think it was in gear and about fall over as it was not.

Anyways one day I was approaching and intersection and had the rpms up like I always do and missed the shift, bike jumped into neutral and I popped it up into second gear with the RPM up..........

That was all she wrote. Busted the gear right off the main shaft.

Some of this stuff......might be.......

The metal filing on the bearing looks like it has floated around a bit, looks like a curled metal from a thread tapping.

The clutch basket nut is staked, you take a hard round punch and peen the nut to the shaft. Generally do have to grind that part off, then the nut will release.

Maybe some of this transmission stuff........is rider caused??? I sure tore up the Harley......

 

[Transformer]

Question...

Are the gears in the Honda off-road bikes undercut? I know the bikes are light, they don't have the torque of a Wing, blah blah....but they are shifted hundreds upon hundreds of times at high rpm's every time they are ridden...without the clutch. I've never had a transmission issue with a street bike or my desert bikes (of various manufacturers) in 45 years? :shrug:

 

[finleypj]

Hum?

You know, I have had my moments on a bike. I have done every stupid thing possible I think at one time or the other.

I used to have a Harley, (several in fact) and those things were bad about jumping out of gear sometimes. Or you would think it was in gear and about fall over as it was not.

Anyways one day I was approaching and intersection and had the rpms up like I always do and missed the shift, bike jumped into neutral and I popped it up into second gear with the RPM up..........

That was all she wrote. Busted the gear right off the main shaft.

Some of this stuff......might be.......

The metal filing on the bearing looks like it has floated around a bit, looks like a curled metal from a thread tapping.

The clutch basket nut is staked, you take a hard round punch and peen the nut to the shaft. Generally do have to grind that part off, then the nut will release.

Maybe some of this transmission stuff........is rider caused??? I sure tore up the Harley......

If they are rider caused then it would stand to reason all the other bikes I ever owned would have blown transmissions. In 36 plus years of two wheeling I never lost a transmission on any bike except the wing. No this is a Honda problem and they know it. It just is just such a small percentage that they can ignore it for now.

 

[finleypj]

This one was repaired at dealer 20,000 miles ago. It now has 40,000 on the bike and needs repair again. I snapped the first pix just as I was walking out the door and believe that is 2nd gear on the main shaft. In that pix I am trying to show how the dog is rounded on the acceleration side as well as the deceleration side. I have not seen one like that yet. The 2nd one is a broken dog from the center of the pix and the dog is laying at the left in the bottom of the case. 3rd is more loose metal particals laying in the bottom of the case. 4th is gear damage in the center. 5th is metal in the upper most part of the rear case where the starter attaches. I saw that as I was taking out that bolt. This tranny damage is the worst I have seen. I will know more Monday after I take the gears to the tranny shop for a visual. I won't get a final report until they are magnafluxed in 3-4 weeks. Who ever assembled this motor didn't know that there is a differance between a 2001-05 and a 2006 and above. You really have to study these thing and pay attention to know, but that had nothing to do with the cause of this failure. It would have been nice too, if he wouldn't have over tightened the clutch basket nut so tight ... I had to cut it off with a torch. He must have been the one in the shop that bragged about having the biggest baddest impact tool. None, even at the Ford dealer down the steet could remove. I didn't have access to a 1" drive impact ... maybe the one that installed it did. The torque spec is 137 ft/lbs.

I guess things are getting crowed in your shop. Good luck Greg, I will be posting more after I get another couple of thousand on the rebuild. Thanks don't be deterred by others, I believe your on the right track with your assessment of these bikes.

 

[31261]

Question...

Are the gears in the Honda off-road bikes undercut? I know the bikes are light, they don't have the torque of a Wing, blah blah....but they are shifted hundreds upon hundreds of times at high rpm's every time they are ridden...without the clutch. I've never had a transmission issue with a street bike or my desert bikes (of various manufacturers) in 45 years? :shrug:

Yea but those bikes are light and with the rpms up a lot of us shift them that way.

But if you did use the clutch like a street bike and had the rpm up and popped it into second gear at a dead stop with the rpm up around 6K something is going to give. Eventually.

You can shift the wing like that too, not sure if it is good for it, but in a curve you can back off a bit and pop it down right quick .....but most likely not real good for it. A lot of weight and torque and force. Eventually something is going to give up.

 

[megatwin]

I have never had a wing transmission apart,and would like to see some more photo's,but if that is the worst one you have seen,the tranny is a lot stouter than a lot of other bikes I have done,including Harley,Yamaha,and suzuki.
Especially the atv trannies.

 

[2Wheeler]

Hum?

Maybe some of this transmission stuff........is rider caused??? I sure tore up the Harley......

I was thinking the same thing. Wings are tourers, not sport bikes. They do handle well, though, and that is a good thing but it takes a lot of power to move all that weight around which equates to a lot of stress and friction on steel gears, etc. Sloppy shifts and speed shifts don't help, either.

 

[GoldWingrGreg]

I guess things are getting crowed in your shop. Good luck Greg, I will be posting more after I get another couple of thousand on the rebuild. Thanks don't be deterred by others, I believe your on the right track with your assessment of these bikes.

Thanks for your ongoing support and am looking forward to your next report. When I started my little GL1800 repair business, I never guessed that so many would ask me to repair their trannys. I repaired mine to find out why all of my 3 GL1800's ghost shifted ... I needed the "why" answered and wanted to let others know what I found. Thus, the ongoing information as I discover more.

I have never had a wing transmission apart,and would like to see some more photo's,but if that is the worst one you have seen,the tranny is a lot stouter than a lot of other bikes I have done,including Harley,Yamaha,and suzuki.
Especially the atv trannies.

It is a well designed motorcycle and "perfect" in so many ways. Even the transmission for that matter. That shaft diameters are huge compared to other big bikes. Even the gear shift arm assembly is a marvel of engineering ... bigger, stronger, and better made that any other ... obviously well thought out in its design. Of course Honda never recommends making them into a trike, or attaching a side car, or towing a trailer, or carrying the weight many riding 2 up carry, but look what these Wings do. It amazes me how well built they are and how durable they are. I always compare them to an F150 PU. Sometimes the F150 is running empty with only a driver, at other times that same PU is fully loaded towing a boat well beyond its intended ability.

----

Yes ... the percentage that have tranny problems is small.

 

[GoldWingrGreg]

Question...

Are the gears in the Honda off-road bikes undercut? I know the bikes are light, they don't have the torque of a Wing, blah blah....but they are shifted hundreds upon hundreds of times at high rpm's every time they are ridden...without the clutch. I've never had a transmission issue with a street bike or my desert bikes (of various manufacturers) in 45 years? :shrug:

I am told that many other m/c manufactures produce bikes with undercut gears. I am also told that Honda is the one manufature that undercut none.

 

[Pigeon Roost]

Thanks for the pics, Greg. I think the technical section of a GoldWing forum IS the appropriate place to share such iformation. I kinda wonder about the inconvenience to you and your customers about having to wait so long for gear inspections and magnaflux services; its tough enough having a complex unit laying around for even a few days waiting on parts, but weeks!

prs

 

[Roadie]

I needed the "why" answered and wanted to let others know what I found.

So Greg in your opinion what is the problem? Why do a few have problems with the transmission and others do not. My 03 has never once missed a shift or has it ever dropped out of a gear...no matter how lightly I've tried shifting.
What is the differences between a bike like mine that has never had the transmission drop out of a gear and the few transmissions that do drop out of a gear?

 

[GoldWingrGreg]

So Greg in your opinion what is the problem? Why do a few have problems with the transmission and others do not. My 03 has never once missed a shift or has it ever dropped out of a gear...no matter how lightly I've tried shifting.
What is the differences between a bike like mine that has never had the transmission drop out of a gear and the few transmissions that do drop out of a gear?

I publically never like to say. I can tell you that it is not the riders fault and hope you can form your own opionion from there. Since under certain conditions it is extreemly dangerous, I am sure that who ever is reponsible will eventually will be held accountable. At least in this country that is how it works.

 

[finleypj]

Thanks for the pics, Greg. I think the technical section of a GoldWing forum IS the appropriate place to share such iformation. I kinda wonder about the inconvenience to you and your customers about having to wait so long for gear inspections and magnaflux services; its tough enough having a complex unit laying around for even a few days waiting on parts, but weeks!

prs

Try getting it back from a dealer any sooner that four to six weeks. First you have to find a dealer that your comfortable with tearing open the engine of the wing. Of the three that I went to and talked to two would not even do the job! The third one had a wing on the lift with the engine out and the parts were in the box for the rebuild. They told me that a rebuild like that goes on the back burner since it takes two mechanics to tear it down (their words not mine). Also quoted me a minimum of one month since they order the parts after tear down and it takes a week to get them. I would imagine it would be easy to have a spare rebuilt on hand and just swap them out. Then the investment in that would be to high.

 

[finleypj]

Thanks for your ongoing support and am looking forward to your next report. When I started my little GL1800 repair business, I never guessed that so many would ask me to repair their trannys. I repaired mine to find out why all of my 3 GL1800's ghost shifted ... I needed the "why" answered and wanted to let others know what I found. Thus, the ongoing information as I discover more.



It is a well designed motorcycle and "perfect" in so many ways. Even the transmission for that matter. That shaft diameters are huge compared to other big bikes. Even the gear shift arm assembly is a marvel of engineering ... bigger, stronger, and better made that any other ... obviously well thought out in its design. Of course Honda never recommends making them into a trike, or attaching a side car, or towing a trailer, or carrying the weight many riding 2 up carry, but look what these Wings do. It amazes me how well built they are and how durable they are. I always compare them to an F150 PU. Sometimes the F150 is running empty with only a driver, at other times that same PU is fully loaded towing a boat well beyond its intended ability.

----

Yes ... the percentage that have tranny problems is small.

Going to try to get more miles in now that I am back from Germany. Did get some nice riding time in Bavaria on a Moto Guzzi Breva 1100. So while doing this I compared my riding style from the FJR to the Moto Guzzi and Wing. As you know I wear ear plugs or ear buds when I ride to kill the wind noise. I go more on feel and rpm gauge to shift than sound for that reason. My shifts on the wing are between 3000 and 4000 rpms. I found that I stay out of 5th until I get over 60 mph or on the highway. I rev the FJR even higher for shift changes, the bike seems to live in the 4500 to 6000 rpm range. The Moto Guzzi was a torque monster and first gear and more pull than the wing. Found that I would go through the first gear almost instantly, had a nice front wheel lift that was unintentional.

So I just did the oil change on the wing and rode it for a hour. Still feels so much more locked in and tight. Of course that is to be expected, the one thing that continues to surprise me is the lack of clunking. I even took it for a ride without a lid and ear plugs to listen more to the sound of the shifts. While it is still evident the clunking is reduced by at least 50%. The shift from neutral to first also has not jerked the bike. So my FJR is looking kind of sad as I try to put another thousand on the wing.

 

[Tryker]

I publically never like to say. I can tell you that it is not the riders fault and hope you can form your own opionion from there.

I truly don't get it. You have posted in great detail about transmission problems. About Honda's not undercutting gears. And about botched repairs. Why would it be so controversial to say why some GL1800s do not have this problem? Is it related to year? That information would surely be useful to many here.

 

[techdude2000]

I don't think the reasons for the ghost shifting have been narrowed down to a given year or component. Greg will chime in soon. The part numbers for 01-10 years are all the same for the tranny parts. I think someone did a survey about years and at that time the 06 was the most prevalent to have problems. This data is not useful, because there's no numbers avail from Honda to say 2006 was the best selling year or that 2004 was the worst for sells, so we don't have a controlled set of numbers to use for the data. Honda might have sold only 5,000 2002s so their numbers would be lower just because there's not as many to fail or respond to a survey. The only way to even approach any kind of accuracy in this would be to have every single 1800 sold to be registered to this board and all of us to respond to a survey about year of bike and whether or not the tranny has failed.

 

[finleypj]

I don't think the reasons for the ghost shifting have been narrowed down to a given year or component. Greg will chime in soon. The part numbers for 01-10 years are all the same for the tranny parts. I think someone did a survey about years and at that time the 06 was the most prevalent to have problems. This data is not useful, because there's no numbers avail from Honda to say 2006 was the best selling year or that 2004 was the worst for sells, so we don't have a controlled set of numbers to use for the data. Honda might have sold only 5,000 2002s so their numbers would be lower just because there's not as many to fail or respond to a survey. The only way to even approach any kind of accuracy in this would be to have every single 1800 sold to be registered to this board and all of us to respond to a survey about year of bike and whether or not the tranny has failed.

Here is the response from the Honda Service Rep at Daytona. There is a indication that a small and very small percentage of Gold Wings have transmission issues. As far as Honda knows there is not one specific replicated issue in the failures. Those under warranty have or will be repaired if no abuse or neglect is involved. The problem I see is that not on particular part has failed, fork shifters and gears all have broke.

I don't think Greg has ever said that Honda should undercut the gears. He only stated that his solution to the transmission failures is undercutting gears.

We are all adults here or at least I hope so. A few of us have had our bikes / transmissions go out. The choice of repair is up to us, who and how it gets done. If someone is happy with their bike the way it is then that is grand. However I like to explore all possibilities before I plop down five grand for a repair. As stated earlier a mechanic at Honda even stated undercutting gears is the way to go. However Honda will not authorize this or warranty it. This dealership has had a few in for repairs and restored them with OEM part. No data on repeat break downs as it is to soon and not enough miles on the bikes. Who knows? Maybe in ten to twenty thousand my transmission will fail again. It is a gamble I took after much research and consultation from many sources. So if your bike is not shifting properly I suggest that you gather as much information as possible, document the occurrences and get Honda involved ASAP.

Good luck.
Gumby