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I had a call from a riding friend of mine who has a chance to sell his 1500 and asked if I wanted to sell my 03 1800. I am sure this is not a new topic here, but not being aware of previous discussions which I am sure you have had, what is the opinions on ABS vs Non ABS. If I were to sell my 03 I always said I would get ABS the next time. I have it on my cars and SUV, but never on a motorcylce. I have one dealer who rides a lot say ok on 4 wheels. but he would rather have brake control at his toe rather than by computer on a motorcycle. I kinda understand why he says that, but I am all for the latest and greatest safety features and don't want to rule one out on one opinion. Since I pull a trailer, I don't know if that is a factor in this decision, so I go to the best source I know the 1800 Riders board :wink: Thanks :!:
 

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It seems that dealers will push whatever they have in stock. I imagine most who purchased non-abs are secretly saying "Wish I'd got ABS".
Others, like you, are leaning toward it but, also are looking for reasons not to have it. Like many have said, it only has to work once to pay for itself.
My 2 cents.
 

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I chose ABS on my wing for a specific reason. My internal fear of locking the front wheel (been there-done it-don't ask)...so, for me, peace of mind and I "use" the front brake more like it is meant to be used.

The FASTEST :yw1: Wing
 

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Here's what I posted on another board!

The only real excuse, in my opinion, to not buy ABS is money! I hear so many stupid reasons why people didn't buy ABS trying to justify their position. I have heard everything from, "I can stop quicker with non-ABS", "I don't need it because I have a MSF certificate", "ABS brakes made my friends go down in sand in a parking lot", "I don't get myself into situations where I would need them", and it goes on and on. Many people are just ignorant of the differences in the two systems. They don't realize it's the same system except ABS will not allow the wheels to lock.

I doubt this discussion will take place with the next model Wing. ABS won't be a option, it will be standard, as it should be!

I will continue to recommend the ABS to any new buyer. I have experienced what it is capable of. I can throw a Wing around better than most (and I do), the ABS is a nice tool to have when I need it.
 

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Iarin,

Below is a copy of one of my previous posts about ABS. Pay special attention to the part about pulling a trailer, then buy your new one WITH ABS. There is no difference in handling, performance or stopping (feel of the brakes) until you begin to skid... THEN IT CAN AND WILL SAVE YOUR DAY! Nobody's "toe" is as quick as that computer...

And Red, money is NOT a valid excuse when you are spending that much for a motorcycle. If it is, wait until you can afford to do it right!

Reprint:
Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:18 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't leave home without it... ABS. I am a full time, highly experienced MSF Instructor/RiderCoach and practice braking regularly. I can stop with the best of them. However, my decision to buy my '02 with ABS was the best one I have made. Despite "walking the walk and talking the talk", a few weeks ago, a large deer standing in my lane cause me to do just what everybody else does when startled... over brake on the rear, underbrake on the front. I was pulling my trailer and a rear wheel skid would have caused a jackknife and loss of control. The ABS kept the rear from fully locking (I could really feel it dancing from side to side trying to skid but never actually breaking loose). I was was successful in avoiding the deer only because the ABS kept the rear straignt. My biggest concern then became the ability of my friend behind me to match my braking intensity with his 1500. Without ABS, I am sure I would have either gone down or hit the deer. Another factor is that the GL 1800 is a high performance machine which will, without a doubt, get your juices flowing from time to time (or all the time). The throttle response is guaranteed to trash about 40% of your maturity and common sense (At 58 years old, the gray went away and I have my pimples back... LOL). The ability to stop fast without skidding is real important when you are riding like a teenager.
 

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My '01 was non-ABS, and of course I believed that an experienced rider like myself didn't need ABS. Last year I got into a panic stop situation and locked up the front wheel. The bike went on its side and under the back of a full size ford p.u. If you look at the whole thing, the non-ABS saved me $$$ because instead of rear-ending this truck all I did was smudge some paint and had a broken caliper cover. Said all of that, I bought a new windward camper at the end of last season and it is a bit heavier than my kwik kamp was so this lock up got me to thinking...... My '04 is ABS.
 

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IARON, . . . . I bought my 02 without ABS. Don't really need ABS on a "bike"! Besides, this thing is heavy, has link braking and that should be good enough.

Last summer coming home from Yellowstone, I had to make a panic stop while pulling my trailer. WOW!! I was surprised that I could lock-up the front wheel and hear the screech of burning rubber before I was able to re-apply the brakes without locking them. VERY SCARY MOMENT! :shock: :22yikes: After I gained control and thankfully did not go down, I immediately thought about how different the situation might have been if my 02 had had ABS! My next one will. Nothing like experience to make a lasting impression.
 

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I rode 51 years without ABS and then one day................

.....after 90,000 miles on my new 01 beautiful pearl blue bike, a little dog suprised me while I was basking in the beauty of the ride and suddenly I was doing Evel Knivels grind, bounce, roll, spin, grind.......when was it going to stop? In 101 yards, that's when.

I saved $997 on the non ABS bike. I spent somewhere around $30,000 getting fixed up and the insurance company spent $20,000 replacing the bike and trailer. The dog, the bike, and the trailer all died, and the Texas DPS came to Commanche Clinic to view my dead body. When I said hello, the DPS guy was speechless for a minute. My 04 has ABS.

Yes I had on gloves and a helmet. I was on cruise at 75 indicated, 70 actual. I was young back then......a little over a year ago. I was 66 at the time.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are several pictures.


 

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Tom, if you don't mind .How did you take that hit on the head? I hope your doing OK now.
Mick :eek: :yw1:
 

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Actually I was thinking the same thing. Helmet came off or what ?

Thank God you're still with us...

Ride safe all,
 

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ABS or not..... why ask.....

I never understood why anyone would buy non-ABS on any vehicle where ABS is available. Sliding tires on any vehicle whether it has 2, 4, 6, or 18 tires mean loss of control in braking. ABS has a sole purpose of preventing any tire from locking up longer than a millisecond or two. The end result is better control during hard braking or braking on very slick surfaces. Unless you are a stunt driver performing a stunt for Hollywood, ABS should be a no-brainer.
 

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I thought that if I had to do it over again, I'd go ABS, just for the added safety net. I'm not so sure now - I find myself weighing the evidence again and not coming to a concise conclusion.

I had made a decision not to before I went to purchase the bike, and in spite of what others insist, cost was not a factor. I was weighing in my braking usage vs. computer control. Do a search for my other ABS posts to read the full reasoning if interested. I was actually uncomfortable with the idea of ABS, perhaps a bit too "old school" in my thinking.

I weigh the stories I hear here, from all walks of life, who have extolled the virtues of ABS. I compare that to my own 21 years riding, hundreds of thousands of miles without ABS, and I'm still here, intact and have had only one accident - where a truck hit me and I was stopped at the time. ABS or not, was inconsequential. I have never gone down otherwise and it is not for a lack of close calls.

ABS will react to locking wheels far quicker than any human ever can. It's a great safety net, as many will attest, but keep one thing in mind as well: Every time ABS kicks in, you've failed. If the power drops, a fuse blows or the ABS computer has a conniption fit, would you still make it?

Safety gear is great, but don't let it become a crutch. Practice good riding habits, ABS or not.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue debating this issue internally...perhaps deciding more on how much I trust myself, than whether I trust a computer system or not.

In any case, to each their own.

Tom, glad you're still with us!
 

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Stormbringer said:
Safety gear is great, but don't let it become a crutch. Practice good riding habits, ABS or not.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue debating this issue internally...perhaps deciding more on how much I trust myself, than whether I trust a computer system or not.

In any case, to each their own.

Tom, glad you're still with us!
Hey Stormbringer, I felt like you for quite a while, but finally came to the conclusion that it probably won't be my inability that will bring up the need for ABS, but a situation arising out of nowhere that will make me appreciate having bought a bike with ABS.

Yes if the computer system fails, you will have to solely rely on you abilities, but while the technology is there - use it :idea:
 

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CRAP!! I dont have ABS!!! :eek:4:
 

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The new reason for ABS

The reason we all rode thousands of miles without ABS successfully is that the designers of the bikes, like the GL1500, had brake forces that were appropriate. That is, the force to lock up the wheel at high speed was fairly high, and not likely to happen. I have avoided several deer on my 1500 and had other panic situations in the 253,000 miles I have put on that bike, 250,000 of those with an Escapade trailer attached.

A part of the design of the GL1800 was to step up to the bar with ABS. In so doing, the brake torque versus brake control force ratio was vastly changed so that there would be excess force (hydraulic pressure) to modulate with the ABS system.

When we over apply the brakes and the wheel decelerates quicker than a predetermined rate, then an opposing force to our manual force is applied. This pushes our hand or foot back away from applying the brakes, thereby raising momentarily the force required to lock the wheels to even more than the 1500 to as much as required to let the wheel re-accelerate.

I did not know what caused me to crash, and while I was tumbling down the tarmack, was pondering that question for the several seconds that it took. It was not until my good friend Stewart said his crash was caused by locking up the brakes that the thought occurred to me that I may have applied the brakes. Stewart and I drove my van back the 180 miles to the scene the following weekend and sure enough, there was the evidence on what happened as you can see in the photo. Another of the six of us that bought early 01 Wings without ABS, Jim Kenney, crashed in Uvalde within 2 days of my misfortune from locking up the wheels because of a woman pullin out in front of him. Jim still has his beautiful pearl blue 01 which he has decorated highly. Stewart sold his 01 and is awaiting a yellow wing when ever Honda decides to come to their senses and put the colors back in the line that everyone liked.

It is my understanding that Honda is not allowed to sell the Wing anywhere else in the world withoug ABS, and should not here either. If the truth be known, there have been many crashes of GL1800 non-ABS because of locked wheels and, just like mine, were blamed on other things. It is time we got our head out of the sand and quit betting our riding careers for the reward of $975.

As far as my head wound is concerned, I believe that line is approximately where the edge of the top pad is in the helmet. I hit on my head and ground that part of the helmet extensively and ground the snaps off that side. My helmet had blood in it even though I was wearing a head sock that was not recovered. The picture that is a part of my signature on this board was taken about 5 hours before the crash. My helmet apparently moved enough on my head to tear my scalp loose for an area about the size of your hand. The plastic surgeon said he could see my skull about the size of a dollar bill. The upside of this is that it did not break my neck.

I had a meeting in DC last fall and ended up working long hours and sleeping almost none until the prior Friday when I did not sleep at all but traveled all night to the Arkansas gathering on my brand new 04 ABS Wing. In the middle of the night, somewhere on I-35, I moved into the exit lane for fuel at about 85 mph, and the 18 wheelers quickly filled the lane I left. When my low beams picked up the exit ramp, it was a marked 25 mph turn and I applied full brakes with my 30 year old 9 foot camper on the back. I never heard that sound before but the bike hauled down to about 35 and I made the turn, quite a bit more awake. That would have been a different story if I nad been on a non ABS bike. The photo below of the red bike was on that trip which included DC.

I just do not know, now that he cat is out of the bag, why any dealer would sell a non ABS Wing, nor Honda. The number of crashes caused by locked wheels can ultimately form a class action suit if anyone is so inclined. I am not, and would never encourage it, unless it was a vehicle to force Honda to do what they should have done on their own. That could save a lot of pain and maybe some lives. It is as simple as the choice between a disk changer or ABS. I made the wrong choice out of ignorance. I am trying to remove the ignorance by demonstrating fact.


 

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Here we GO again. :banghead: Im sorry that Honda gave you people in the US the option of ABS or Non ABS. :a13: What you people would do to save a few bucks is just unbelievable. :mad1: Get real. :cus: Get ABS. :yes:




:coolit: :rw1: :coolit:
 

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Unfortunetly I don't possess Stormbringers pro racer's braking skills, or the time to continuely hone them.

Unfortunetly I also don't ride on a race track. I ride in the real world in amongst the deer, cows, soccer moms, teeny boppers with cell phones, and middle aged guys like me with cell phones stuck to their ears and a million things on their minds.

When the time comes that I'm the million and one thing in the wrong place at to high of a speed I'll be damn glad to have ABS. It may not save me, but at least I can nail both brakes and focus 99% of my startled brain cells on direction change options/ bike handling/ etc. (the other 1% may or may not be successful in keeping me from crapping my pants :shock: )

One thing to keep in mind is that Tom Finch at one time sort of had the opinion that ABS wasn't that important, and if I remember correctly (I may be wrong you could ask Tom) he used to put forth that good, often practiced braking skills made ABS superfluous. So his opinion now represents a change of attitude brought on by experience. Anyone pondering this ABS/nonABS question can profit from his experience.

Knowing Tom from this board the last couple of years, and reading about his inclusion in some nationaly recognized lofty intellectual company I have a great deal of respect for his opinion.

I had an ABS ST 1300 bike before Tom's accident. After reading his analysis of his accident and the conclusions about ABS he drew from it, I would not buy a bike without ABS no matter how good the deal was.

'Course I'm just a middle aged bald guy with a cell phone stuck to my ear and a million things on my mind :D

:rat: Bake
 

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ABS is a wonderful invention. But if you slam on the brakes on your ABS motorcycle you had better be going straight and not turning at all or you will lose it. If you have a trailer on your bike like TOM you will need a pick up truck not a motorcycle to pull it.

Tony Chicagoland 01 non ABS :blw1:
 

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ABS no brainer

I sold my perfectly good IR 01 Wing w/out ABS to buy my 04 Red Wing.
I also had an ST1100 ABS-TCS but I bought the 01 without because it was a wonderful color and it was at the dealers shop. Big Mistake.
Wish I could get it on my new 919. :excited:
 
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