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Discussion Starter #1
A couple of things have been puzzling me.

1. When I see drawings of lines through corners, I typically see an initial turn and then the bike goes pretty straight through the apex and then there is another sharp turn as the bike comes out of the corner. I find myself going O-I-O but pretty well maintaining the same lean throughout. When I watch other GoldWing riders like Yellow Wolf riding through corners, I do not see anything that looks like two turns separated by a stretch where the bike stands up in the middle of the turn. I'm confused. Can you help?

2. If you have a 180 degree tight turn, where is the apex on this turn? I tend to start at the outside heading for the inside of the corner and then stay there until I can see my way out of the corner and then I start allowing the bike to to straighten out and therefore end up on the outside of the lane. Is there a better way?
 

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As taught in a advanced riding class I took almost ten years ago stay away from the center line until you can see all the way through the corner. With today's distracted drivers drifting over the center line, the old "hitting the apex"cornering style will get you killed. This may only apply in forested or mountain riding where you can't see oncoming traffic but that is where most of the good riding is anyway.
 

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The safest line through a garden variety corner is setting up a delayed apex. This allows seeing further into the corner before committing to a line and gives the largest margin of safety to make mid-course corrections. It saves the bacon in a corner that goes off camber or unexpectedly tightens up (decreasing radius).



The O-I-O line puts the apex at halfway through the corner and is easiest to manage. Early apex is a no no, never go there. It commits us early to a line that may take us off the pavement in a left hander and across the center line in a right hander.



I do not know of a method that uses two turns and a upright section.


I made this crude drawing once to illustrate O-I-O apex vs late apex:


 

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Discussion Starter #4
O-I-O corners

The safest line through a garden variety corner is setting up a delayed apex. This allows seeing further into the corner before committing to a line and gives the largest margin of safety to make mid-course corrections. It saves the bacon in a corner that goes off camber or unexpectedly tightens up (decreasing radius).



The O-I-O line puts the apex at halfway through the corner and is easiest to manage. Early apex is a no no, never go there. It commits us early to a line that may take us off the pavement in a left hander and across the center line in a right hander.



I do not know of a method that uses two turns and a upright section.


I made this crude drawing once to illustrate O-I-O apex vs late apex:
It looks to me like all of these drawings have a nearly straight portion while the bike is going around the corner. I'm having a hard time relating these drawings to real life. I am also unsure as to why you are not calling all these are O-I-O corners.
 

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The difference between a straight O-I-O and a delayed apex corner is the initiation point is later and the I point (tangent) is moved further into the corner. There are other factors which may shape the line as well. One I could think of is when you have a pair of linked corners R/L. My line in the first corner would shift to a very late (reduced speed) apex and become more of an O-I-I corner in order to set up for the next O-I-O left-hander. My acceleration would begin coming through the first corner at the tangent (when the direct line of sight includes the entrance to the next corner) and the L hand corner would be initiated as an O-I-O.

This is the reason my phone is always up on my right handlebar and has a clear picture that is zoomed to include the next half to 3/4 mile. I find Waze or Google maps are a very great help to understand the shape of the upcoming corners as well as informs me as to what the setup for the next corner may require.

Don’t know if that clarifies or muddles things....

:thumbup:
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Cornering

The difference between a straight O-I-O and a delayed apex corner is the initiation point is later and the I point (tangent) is moved further into the corner. There are other factors which may shape the line as well. One I could think of is when you have a pair of linked corners R/L. My line in the first corner would shift to a very late (reduced speed) apex and become more of an O-I-I corner in order to set up for the next O-I-O left-hander. My acceleration would begin coming through the first corner at the tangent (when the direct line of sight includes the entrance to the next corner) and the L hand corner would be initiated as an O-I-O.

This is the reason my phone is always up on my right handlebar and has a clear picture that is zoomed to include the next half to 3/4 mile. I find Waze or Google maps are a very great help to understand the shape of the upcoming corners as well as informs me as to what the setup for the next corner may require.

Don’t know if that clarifies or muddles things....

:thumbup:
I have used my GPS to see how far to the next corner, but have not consistently used it to see how tight the corners are and how they are placed. That is a good tip.

I am beginning to think that I have been doing my turns all wrong. I tend to keep a constant radius on my turn after I lean into it. I do not start with a definite turn then lean out of it a bit and then finish with another defined turn. I tend to turn in and maintain the same turn radius through the turn. Neither the drawings in this thread nor others that I have seen would indicate a consistent radius turn.
 

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--

It's a little hard to follow all the suggestions and styles mentioned above. So I'll try a different way. Imagine for a moment that you are on a two lane road and if in all turns you are well below the maximum speed you could go and still make the turn, then you will have other concerns. (At maximum speed you would have been probably leaning in, trail braking, trying not to scrape hard parts and praying. So we won't go there.)

Probably in this order:

1. First will be the road surface meaning if there are potholes, cracks, vegetation, water or gravel, then those will direct your path to avoid an upset.

2. Second will be the opposing traffic, or probable traffic. You will not want to use part of your lane's track (which are the inner, center, outer) that's nearest to the traffic. (In fact, I move to a track away from all opposing traffic on a two lane road even on straightaways.)

3. Third is keeping in mind that you will want to be as wide as you can away from the inside of the turn whenever you cannot see all the way around since you will have a greater field of vision and more time to correct for any problem ahead. This means starting out in the outside track unless numbers 1 & 2 are in play. This is what's taught in most classes.

4. Lastly, it's not really important exactly where your bike is going straight, partially angled, or in a hard lean as no two highway turns are exactly the same. That is that all road conditions the same, your speed the same, your view the same. It's always to see as far ahead as you can and don't go straight and fast until you are almost through the turn.

No need to get caught up in technical points unless you are on a race course where the little details are important as the factors stay the same for the most part.

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Best approach is usually outside inside outside. If uncertain or less experienced use middle middle middle.

There are three general curve types:

1. Constant radius, which has the same curvature throughout.

2. Increasing radius, which has the curve open up.

3. Decreasing radius, which has the curve close up and become progressively tighter.


There are three general curve parts:

1. Entry, which is the first part of the curve.

2. Apex, which is the middle or sharpest point in your path around the curve.

3. Exit, which is the last part of the curve.


There are three general lane positions:
1. Outside, which is farthest away from the center line in a left-hand curve and nearest the center line in a right-

hand curve.

2. Middle, which is the center of the lane.

3. Inside, which is nearest the center line in left-hand curve and farthest from the center line in a right-hand curve


Thus:
Using three curve parts and three lane positions means you have 27 options. (3 cubed)

To illustrate, you could use a general strategy of middle-middle-middle: middle on entry, middle at the apex, and middle at the exit, as this provides space on both sides within your lane throughout the curve.

Or you could use a performance-type strategy of outside-inside-outside that reduces the lean required and allows you see farther through the curve, but gets you closer to the center line and the shoulder.
For any strategy you use, having a good entry speed is crucial so you do not have to make any major speed or lane position adjustments in the curve.

All courtesy of MSF manual and my experience as retired instructor


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Best approach is usually outside inside outside. ....

Or you could use a performance-type strategy of outside-inside-outside that reduces the lean required and allows you see farther through the curve, but gets you closer to the center line and the shoulder.


All courtesy of MSF manual and my experience as retired instructor ... :22yikes:
For safe road driving, that's a no-no for me. It gives you nowhere to go if you need a lane position change for any unforeseen reason and, unless it's a completely open bend, it limits your view up the road when you commit to the bend. It also puts your head near or over the centre line at the bend apex.

It's pretty much always a delayed apex for me and slower in to fast out. Watching the curve of the centre line is useful, keep steady throttle while rounding the curve until you sense the line shows the curve opening up and at that point gently roll on the throttle. A delayed apex also ensures that when the bike is at maximum lean it's nearer the edge of the road in both left-hand and right-hand turns so keeping your head on your side of the carriageway. It also gives maximum view up the road before committing to maximum lean and opening the throttle. Finally, it's quite a quick way to corner because the rider sees the road to be clear earlier and the line of the bike's track opens up sooner so the throttle can be applied earlier.

IHMO, of course. :wink2:
 

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For safe road driving, that's a no-no for me. It gives you nowhere to go if you need a lane position change for any unforeseen reason and, unless it's a completely open bend, it limits your view up the road when you commit to the bend. It also puts your head near or over the centre line at the bend apex.



It's pretty much always a delayed apex for me and slower in to fast out. Watching the curve of the centre line is useful, keep steady throttle while rounding the curve until you sense the line shows the curve opening up and at that point gently roll on the throttle. A delayed apex also ensures that when the bike is at maximum lean it's nearer the edge of the road in both left-hand and right-hand turns so keeping your head on your side of the carriageway. It also gives maximum view up the road before committing to maximum lean and opening the throttle. Finally, it's quite a quick way to corner because the rider sees the road to be clear earlier and the line of the bike's track opens up sooner so the throttle can be applied earlier.



IHMO, of course. :wink2:


I don’t disagree but this course is for beginners so as skill progress etc so do your techniques


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I enjoy riding the twisties, but at what many here would consider a boring pace. Over the past half a million motorcycle miles, I have trained to expect the unexpected, i.e. in blind curves or on unfamiliar road surfaces. That training is often reinforced, when I meet another crowding the centerline in a curve, come upon a limb across the road, or car muffler, or wet leaves, or whatever. If on a controlled track, or able to shut a public road down after insuring the surface is spotless, I may ride a bit more aggressively, but probably not much. Still, I read the principles and advice in posts such as here, and then practice on my own, because I believe it makes me a safer rider overall. But I am just never gonna be a peg dragging kinda guy in the twisties.

I'll go back to lurking here now.
Thanks :)
 

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I enjoy riding the twisties, but at what many here would consider a boring pace. Over the past half a million motorcycle miles, I have trained to expect the unexpected, i.e. in blind curves or on unfamiliar road surfaces. That training is often reinforced, when I meet another crowding the centerline in a curve, come upon a limb across the road, or car muffler, or wet leaves, or whatever. If on a controlled track, or able to shut a public road down after insuring the surface is spotless, I may ride a bit more aggressively, but probably not much. Still, I read the principles and advice in posts such as here, and then practice on my own, because I believe it makes me a safer rider overall. But I am just never gonna be a peg dragging kinda guy in the twisties.

I'll go back to lurking here now.
Thanks :)
To each their own! Ride your ride! No apologies. It’s not a race, it’s a matter of style. I ride for adrenaline, others ride for the reduction of it. No “right” answer, just the one that trips your trigger. We all, however, need to improve our skill sets to make riding as safe and controlled as possible.

Ride on!

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I start outside edge and turn into the inner edge of I can't see what's around the corner, like and oncoming vehicle. It also allows room to move out a bit of there is sand or gravel in my path. Unless it's a n open country area where I can see there is nothing in my path, then OIO and on the accelerator with a little rear braking.

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Discussion Starter #17
This youtube vid does a good job explaining lines. Pay particular attention to the 'ideal Racing line'. This vid was meant more for cars, many of the principles apply to bikes. I also ride easy thru the curves. :)
You have stretched the limits of believability way beyond its breaking point. Or put another way, “Liar, Liar, pants on fire!”
 

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With the limited lean angle of a Wing, and having to stay on your side of the yellow line, delayed entry with outside-inside-outside is how I have to do it. But i cant keep up with the fast guys anyway I try. :=)
 

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The safest line through a garden variety corner is setting up a delayed apex. This allows seeing further into the corner before committing to a line and gives the largest margin of safety to make mid-course corrections. It saves the bacon in a corner that goes off camber or unexpectedly tightens up (decreasing radius).

The O-I-O line puts the apex at halfway through the corner and is easiest to manage. Early apex is a no no, never go there. It commits us early to a line that may take us off the pavement in a left hander and across the center line in a right hander.
Very well explained. I agree. On the street, delayed apex is the best strategy to use. Every street riding course I have ever taken has taught delayed apex corning. It isn't the fastest, and you wouldn't do it that way at the track, but it is the safest. It also still allows you to be smooth through the turn. And smooth is fast. Slow in. Fast out. The delayed apex strategy is based on the assumption that there is a hidden danger lurking in every turn. It allows you to safely navigate turns while still being able to rocket out of the turn like your hair's on fire.

A 180 degree turn would be treated the same way. The apex is just longer. You don't dive for the inside to prepare to accelerate until you can see the end of the turn. A 180 is generally not the place to get aggressive.

Don't overthink this, and don't treat it like a repetitive robotic exercise. Every turn is different. Proper cornering technique is intended as a general guideline. That's the fun of riding. Not all turns are going to cooperate.
 

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@networkguy3, the turn-straight-turn thing you are asking about is, I believe, an optical illusion in the diagrams. Or bad drawing. The reality should be: lean in - keep turning - straighten out.

For a single constant radius turn (road), your turn radius (bike path) can and probably should be constant once you've turned in, until you're straightening out. It will be a different radius (r bike > r road) if you use the full lane and choose wisely.

Of course there are lots of permutations of the turn (road) increasing or decreasing radius, and of setting up for multiple turns possibly meaning you do something a little off in one turn to optimize the series of them. That's a different issue.

Lots of discussion here about line choice, lane position, apex, etc. All fine and dandy. Also a different twist on the issue.

Smart guys, please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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