[gkarasik]

There is a guy here in the German Goldwing forum, who experienced a bad ISG and got this successfully repaired by his dealer.
His bike showed the symptom, which @gkarasik reported in post #14.



The dealer said: "...The coal holder was jammed..."

I asked the owner which code the dealer pulled but I haven't received an answer until now.

Bituminous?

 

[AussieChris]

“Coal holder was jammed.” Does that mean the the mechanism for keeping the brushes in place was jammed?

Sounds like it... "coal" = carbon. Typical Google translate issue. It would not be impossible for a brush to get hung up in the holder. That should have thrown a DTC of 116-2.

Generally, only dealers get to see the full DTC codes (116-1 thru 116-6) using their MCS (Motorcycle Communication System) scan tool. We amateurs just see code 116.

I'd like to get my hands on a genuine Honda MCS tool but they are about AU$1500 here and impossible to get. I think the part number is F00K1-088-76.

 

[gkarasik]

Sounds like it... "coal" = carbon. Typical Google translate issue. It would not be impossible for a brush to get hung up in the holder. That should have thrown a DTC of 116-2.

Generally, only dealers get to see the full DTC codes (116-1 thru 116-6) using their MCS (Motorcycle Communication System) scan tool. We amateurs just see code 116.

I'd like to get my hands on a genuine Honda MCS tool but they are about AU$1500 here and impossible to get. I think the part number is F00K1-088-76.

The alternative part number is FOOKME-088-69.

 

[murf]

Sounds like it... "coal" = carbon. Typical Google translate issue. It would not be impossible for a brush to get hung up in the holder. That should have thrown a DTC of 116-2.

Generally, only dealers get to see the full DTC codes (116-1 thru 116-6) using their MCS (Motorcycle Communication System) scan tool. We amateurs just see code 116.

I'd like to get my hands on a genuine Honda MCS tool but they are about AU$1500 here and impossible to get. I think the part number is F00K1-088-76.

I had a hunch it was coal = carbon/graphite. Is the Honda MCS tool available for purchase in your country by someone other than a dealer?

 

[AussieChris]

I had a hunch it was coal = carbon/graphite. Is the Honda MCS tool available for purchase in your country by someone other than a dealer?

It is listed on a couple if dealer's websites but they all show nil stock or unavailable. I haven't seen it anywhere else unfortunately. Maybe they keep it just for dealers but then why show a price?

There's plenty of cheap generic OBD2 scan tools available. I have one that works ok (displays/clears PGM-FI error codes) but it doesn't do anything like what the genuine one does.

Comparison Honda MCS vs Generic Scan Tool:

Source and more info: Why Choose MCS ? – Diagnostic Tool for Honda Motorcycles | Plus ONE | Motorcycle Aftersales | Honda Global

 

[murf]

It is listed on a couple if dealer's websites but they all show nil stock or unavailable. I haven't seen it anywhere else unfortunately. Maybe they keep it just for dealers but then why show a price?

There's plenty of cheap generic OBD2 scan tools available. I have one that works ok (displays/clears PGM-FI error codes) but it doesn't do anything like what the genuine one does.

Comparison Honda MCS vs Generic Scan Tool:
View attachment 496684

Source and more info: Why Choose MCS ? – Diagnostic Tool for Honda Motorcycles | Plus ONE | Motorcycle Aftersales | Honda Global

As far as I know, it‘s only available to dealers here. (US)

 

[Earthdog]

There are six DTC codes that indicate a problem with the ISG.

1. DTC 116-1, ISG Malfunction
2. DTC 116-2, ISG Malfunction, brush
3. DTC 116-3, ISG Malfunction, primary
4. DTC 116-4, ISG Malfunction, drive train
5. DTC 116-5, ISG Malfunction, inhibitor line
6. DTC 116-6, ISG Malfunction, exciting output line.

Easiest to diagnose are brush problems and drive train problems. The only serviceable item on the ISG itself are the brushes which can be replaced. If DTC 116-5 is displayed, you replace the ECM with a known good one.

Definitely agree it is too expensive of a part to just throw at the problem without a good solid diagnosis. Too bad the “solid diagnosis” involves replacing the ISG with a known good one to see if the problem goes away. Dealers certainly do not have a “spare” ISG lying around to “replace the ISG with a known good one” to resolve issues, and they don’t have spare ECM’s lying around if DTC 116-5 is indicated.

I've asked the Dealer to get me the codes so I can share here.They are still waiting on a Recall bike to swap my ISG's and test.

 

[gkarasik]

I've asked the Dealer to get me the codes so I can share here.They are still waiting on a Recall bike to swap my ISG's and test.

I don't know what I'd have said if during my UBS bolt recall the dealer had asked whether I'd mind them testing my ISG on another bike or testing another bike's ISG on my bike. I do know I'd be majorly unhappy if I found out they'd done that and not asked. I might have said yes if they put it in writing that they'd fix my bike free of charge should anything be wrong with it after the testing.

 

[Fluke189]

Some things can't logically diagnosed even with a scan tool, error codes ect. I suspect the ISG falls into this category. Sometimes part replacing is the only way. Replace and hope and pray, if it doesn't work replace next most logical part,sad but true unfortunately.
Zenith service manual on the first of the TVs that went digital procedure according to the service manual, "replace most logical item, if unsuccessful replace 2nd most logical, if unsuccessful replace 3rd ect". A dumb as crap way to repair anything, but the way things have gone. Complex crap, expect complex repair and a lot of trial and error.

 

[gkarasik]

Some things can't logically diagnosed even with a scan tool, error codes ect. I suspect the ISG falls into this category. Sometimes part replacing is the only way. Replace and hope and pray, if it doesn't work replace next most logical part,sad but true unfortunately.
Zenith service manual on the first of the TVs that went digital procedure according to the service manual, "replace most logical item, if unsuccessful replace 2nd most logical, if unsuccessful replace 3rd ect". A dumb as crap way to repair anything, but the way things have gone. Complex crap, expect complex repair and a lot of trial and error.

Yes, I believe that you're correct about this. I think we make a mistake by comparing trouble-shooting current-generation, electronics-laden parts with trouble-shooting older-generation, purely--or mostly--mechanical parts. There are very few Freds, Jerrys, Murfs, or Techdudes. (We have a highly unusual cluster here of hybrid mechanical/electronic engine whisperers, and I apologize if I've left anyone out). There aren't many motorcycle-mechanic-school grads who are going to be able to diagnose and repair complex electronics-laden parts and their CANBUS inter-relationships with other complex-electronics-laden parts. Unlike our resident geniuses who can--and who have the time to--track down cascading failures at the circuit-board level, "normal" moto-mechanics are limited to using diagnostic machines to ID bad sub-subsystems and swapping them out in order to get modern vehicles back on the road. Imagine what they'd hear from a customer if they handed him bill for umpteen thousands of dollars of diagnostic time in order to find and switch out a failed diode.

 

[gravnov]

Sounds like it... "coal" = carbon. Typical Google translate issue...

Exactly! Since English isn't my native language, I have to Google translate some sentences before posting them in the forum.
The dealer suspected that driving in salty conditions might have caused the problem.

 

[Shadowjack1020]

Back in the 90s, I had a chance to look at the service manuals for an IBM 4381 computer. Not the biggest they made but mainframe-sized. The troubleshooting section was nothing but "if this symptom is present, change this board. If still present, try this one". At the end of this rabbit hole, the last line read "Invoke your support structure."😑

 

[Fred H.]

There are six DTC codes that indicate a problem with the ISG.

1. DTC 116-1, ISG Malfunction
2. DTC 116-2, ISG Malfunction, brush
3. DTC 116-3, ISG Malfunction, primary
4. DTC 116-4, ISG Malfunction, drive train
5. DTC 116-5, ISG Malfunction, inhibitor line
6. DTC 116-6, ISG Malfunction, exciting output line.

Easiest to diagnose are brush problems and drive train problems. The only serviceable item on the ISG itself are the brushes which can be replaced. If DTC 116-5 is displayed, you replace the ECM with a known good one.

Definitely agree it is too expensive of a part to just throw at the problem without a good solid diagnosis. Too bad the “solid diagnosis” involves replacing the ISG with a known good one to see if the problem goes away. Dealers certainly do not have a “spare” ISG lying around to “replace the ISG with a known good one” to resolve issues, and they don’t have spare ECM’s lying around if DTC 116-5 is indicated.

Exactly. You don't replace a $2K part just because you think it "might" be a problem. That's just laziness. If there are no DTC codes for the ISG, why are they even considering replacing it?

When the ISG doesn't fix it, will the dealer tell you he thinks the entire engine needs to be replaced next to "try" and see if that fixes it? Or maybe you should just buy a whole new bike and start all over from scratch. That should certainly fix it.

 

[gkarasik]

Exactly. You don't replace a $2K part just because you think it "might" be a problem. That's just laziness. If there are no DTC codes for the ISG, why are they even considering replacing it?

When the ISG doesn't fix it, will the dealer tell you he thinks the entire engine needs to be replaced next to "try" and see if that fixes it? Or maybe you should just buy a whole new bike and start all over from scratch. That should certainly fix it.

If everything else they can think of doesn't fix the bike's problem, then what's the alternative to swapping the ISG?

 

[WNG-2]

Did this motorcycle ever get fixed?

 

[Earthdog]

Nope still at dealer waiting one a loaner ISG to test from Honda.

 

[gravnov]

There is a guy here in the German Goldwing forum, who experienced a bad ISG and got this successfully repaired by his dealer.

He posted another conversation with his dealer (translated by google):

"There was a brown/oily substance in the starter. The starter was opened and cleaned and a new set of magnets was installed. That's it, everything's working again."

He said, in spring, his navigation system directed him onto a dirt road where there was still a lot of mud and snow. Some of the mud probably got into the starter motor.

 

[Earthdog]

BTW: I replaced the battery that day in the parking lot with a new one.

This is the continuation of my other posts on my newly purchased 2018 DCT (with completed recall for Fuel Pump and UBS Bolt) prior to me. It worked flawlessly for the first few days. I was riding fine I parked the bike, went into my stop for an hour, came out, and this is what happens:

Ignition on all displays looks normal. Press Start/ Stop button.
Starter engages; attempts to start do not fire up.

If you hold down the start/stop button,
Starter engages; attempts to start acts like you removed your finger from the button and will engage the starter again and attempt to start 2-3 times before stopping as if you remove your finger from the button.

On all attempts no fire up from the engine.

Trailered bike to Dealer 1 month ago. Per Dealer and Honda Tech Line, they said it was the ISG. Well, today (1 month later they got an ISG to test), that was proven wrong. The The ISG did not make any difference.

The Tech/Dealer is stumped and will be calling Honda again later today. The Tech said he has no idea; maybe a PCM, but will see what Honda says.

I read somewhere previously that it could be the switches, but the dealer says it is not possible.

Any thoughts? It stinks having a new bike for 2 days (selling my 2005) and losing it to the dealer for a month.

I have set up an appointment at another dealer Southern Powersports on the 8th as they tout having 4 certified TRUE Honda Techs. I would prefer not to have to pull it out of my local dealer and trailer it 2 hours away, but I am not sure what else to do.

Any ideas would be great. I am going to try and get a video of the behavior from the dealer later today.

 

[Candy Red Tour DCT Airbag]

You mentioned that you changed the battery…check the connections to make sure they’re tight…I had a similar situation last month…thankfully the bike started…got it home…bought a new battery the next morning…when I went to install it, I discovered the positive terminal was loose…tightened it and all was well…and no issues since….good luck…ride safe…

Scoty

 

[Zee Fifty]

Why a new thread?

I think Admins should merge this thread with the original thread just to keep everything in one place.

I’m glad it wasn’t the ISG….

Has the fuel pressure been checked? …. I can’t remember the details in the other thread.