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Discussion Starter #1
I notice when doing tight maneuvers like a 45-degree turnout or little tiny circles, that I feel very uncomfortable with the bars at full lock. For example, I'm doing a 45-degree turnout so I lock the bars to the left, step forward a bit with my left foot to lean the bike (slightly--darned thing is HEAVY) and ease on some gas. As soon as I start to move, my first instinct is to get the bar OFF full lock!


  • Do you think I just need more practice, to be comfortable with that full lock feeling?
  • Could I be not looking behind far enough?
  • Is there a trick to knowing how MUCH clutch and gas to use to make the bike swoop around at full lock?
  • Other suggestions?

I've seen other people do it live. My eyes tell me it can be done. My brain knows it. At the same time, my survival reactions tell me to steer well clear of full lock turns. :shrug:
 

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Almost everyting about a motorcycle is bass akerds of what common since tells you to do. Throttle is often your friend when your brain says to brake. Lean over to stay upright, thats nuts, keep your feet off the ground? Practice and practice. You are afraid of dropping it, and rightfully so the darn thing is heavy. Maybe padding the engine guards will help. I don't know, but you aren't alone in the heavy bike phobia. A rider course might help, but stay at it.

You can do it.
 

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Here's the thing...

The only time you have to do a full lock, dead stop turn is if you just do not have the room to do it any other way aside from a multi-point turn.

Try this... From a dead stop, (right foot on rear brake slightly) practice doing a left or right turn but not tight. Here's the catch: Do not move the bike forward until you are almost at full lean. This will take some balls and lots of practice!!!

What you are fighting is a combination of bike leaning and a fear of dropping it combined with trying to make a full lock turn.

Another thought: Are you comfortable doing full lock turns to begin with? When you are doing my static circles, are you able to reach full lock and STAY there? If not, I suggest getting more comfortable doing this before you are trying to perform full lock, dead stop turns.

The major issue with a full lock turn is you can't turn the bars any further so your balance needs to be on point.

You can also practice full lock turns WITHOUT leaning the bike. Think of a slow race. Do circles as slow as you can while maintaining a full lock position on the bars.


I can keep going but that should give you some stuff to play with. Come on back with questions.
 

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im not an expert, but i would say dont start out with full lock, get comfortable with larger circles in both directions until you can scrape you foot peg all 360 deg in third gear, no brake, no clutch, no throttle, when you can do that make the circles smaller. once you get the feel for full lean angle, then you can work on the other stuff without fear of falling over.
check out DJFIRE's techniques, they do work.
 

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DJ posted as i was writing LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #6
DJ, you said I could practice u-turns from a stop, but "Do not move the bike forward until you are almost at full lean." By "forward," do you mean coming OUT of the lean? I think I understand that you are suggesting I should keep the bike moving--and adding lean--till I get a good lean going, THEN straighten up and pull out. Yes? I'll try that tonight on the way home.

As for those pesky 3rd gear turns and circles, PepsX--I'm still not scraping much and can't do a full circle on demand. I know, I know: "Play with the force, you must!"

My excuse this time is that the last parking lot I played in had tar snakes and they kept biting at the gremlins and making the bike jump around. :joke:
 

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Another thought: Are you comfortable doing full lock turns to begin with? When you are doing my static circles, are you able to reach full lock and STAY there? If not, I suggest getting more comfortable doing this before you are trying to perform full lock, dead stop turns.

^ THIS

You need to get comfortable being at the lock just spinning circles and doing u-turns before you work on starting from a dead stop on the lock.

IMHO of course.
 

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For those who do not know --- Stevie & I are (almost ha ha) always head to head in competition.

If there is something I did not stress enough, listen to Stevie... he will break it down for you cold.

BTW - He is an Instructor who deals with this stuff all day long.




Stevie --- will GW let me use the Road King against you at Wing Ding ?!?!? muuhaaa ha h a
 

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My biggest observation from judging motorcycle cop competition for half dozen years and RLAP and following someone who constantly makes me correct for wrong turns is that HEAD AND EYES are the best help in getting comfortable with doing any kind of tight turns. It's not enough to just avert your eyes in the direction you want to go, you have to turn your entire head, like a swivel on your shoulders. Look at the avatars above and you'll see all the people doing tight turns are looking so far to the right they can't see the front of the bike. It will go where you turn your HEAD and EYES. Throttle control and friction zone help but if you don't have your HEAD AND EYES turned you won't make it as tight as you thought you might. I have to fight the urge to watch for gravel and stuff instead of turning my HEAD AND EYES as far as I can.
 

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im not an expert, but i would say dont start out with full lock, get comfortable with larger circles in both directions until you can scrape you foot peg all 360 deg in third gear, no brake, no clutch, no throttle, when you can do that make the circles smaller. once you get the feel for full lean angle, then you can work on the other stuff without fear of falling over.
check out DJFIRE's techniques, they do work.
That will help get you comfortable with the lean angle but you may just need the clutch, brake and throttle to pull off locked turns from a stop.
;)
 

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Stevie --- will GW let me use the Road King against you at Wing Ding ?!?!? muuhaaa ha h a
You can use the RK if I can use my KZ-P ;)
 

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That will help get you comfortable with the lean angle but you may just need the clutch, brake and throttle to pull off locked turns from a stop.
;)
crap! back to the drawing board! :lol:
 

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It's not enough to just avert your eyes in the direction you want to go, you have to turn your entire head, like a swivel on your shoulders.
That's true TO A POINT. I think this is driven so hard that people think it's ALL they have to do and that is not true.

When the statement is made to look as far as you can, it means you have to twist your back so your shoulders are pivoting as well. ONLY turning your head is not enough.

By default, when you twist your back, your arms move. It's physics 101. Example: Put both hands on the top of your computer monitor as though you were on your bike (arms close to straight). Now ONLY turn your head and look at your room to both directions. Make a mental picture of the furthest point you can see. Now repeat this BUT TWIST YOUR BACK also. Again, take a mental note of your vision's added view. You will also notice the "inside" arm is no longer touching the computer monitor. Viola! Now you've got it!
 

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You can use the RK if I can use my KZ-P ;)
I dunno - the durn 09+ frames lost 2' of turning radius. Harley did come out with a work around but it's $250+ for the parts and 5 hours of shop time. "Police Fork Kit"
 

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I dunno - the durn 09+ frames lost 2' of turning radius. Harley did come out with a work around but it's $250+ for the parts and 5 hours of shop time. "Police Fork Kit"
I've ridden the Road King, Street Glide, Electra Glides and an Electra Glide Police both pre and post 09 and I'm pretty sure the KZ will still out turn them all.

It all comes down to wheelbase, steering lock and lean angle. Road King wheelbase is 63.5”, KZ1000P is 60.43. Both have good steering lock (not sure which has more) but you can file the stops on each to gain more. However, if you allow the bars to turn too far by shaving the stops too much the front tire will start to want to hop sideways rather than turn the motorcycle. The KZ has more ground clearance.

The Road King Police is a nice bike DJ but given equal riders I think a KZP could still leave the Road King for dead on a Police style course. There's a reason they competed in different classes and there's a reason the KZs were faster.

Cheers,
Steve
 

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I couldn't (even if I wanted to, which I don't) argue with anything Stevie or Doug have said, but just to reinforce...

If you aren't comfortable doing "static" circles at full lock, trying a full lock u-turn from a stop is going to be very (very, very) hard.

Your instinct to get the bike off full lock is exactly the right instinct (it isn't what you logically want to do, but it is instinct and it isn't wrong).

Here's the thing... When you are making tight turns and you start to fall to the inside there are 2 ways to correct 1) Turn more to the inside 2) Speed up (of course this is low speed stuff, things at speed change).

When you are at full lock you've taken away 1/2 of your escape paths, as you can't turn any more to the inside. That's the whole idea of full lock.

When you are going from a stop, speed is "touchy" to control (must get the right balance of throttle, gear and rear brake) (and I'm by no means a master at this, in fact I'm not even good enough to say that I'm really working on it yet).

So your instincts are exactly right. You will need to build confidence in doing this and starting with the "from a stop" part is going to make it very hard unless you have the whole friction zone thing mastered. There's nothing wrong with practicing full lock turns. There's nothing wrong with practicing friction zone stuff. Until you are comfortable with both of them "independently" trying to get them both correct, at the same time, is going to be a challenge.

I'm doing the 3rd gear full scraping circles bit (or I was a few months ago when the bike got put away), and I don't think I'm anywhere near ready for full lock u-turns from a stop.

DJ also mentions the "full lock without leaning" thing. This is somewhat strange to me, as this is exactly the technique I was trying to use to do the "figure 8's" on the local MSF course before I started reading about all of this leaning stuff :). I've only tried it a couple of times since I've started the leaning stuff, and man is that hard. As he says, it's a slow race concept, but without being able to turn the wheel, so you're all about friction zone, adjusting you body position, but keeping the wheel at a full lock so that the turn is tight. I certainly understand why it's mentioned, but man is it hard :).

My recommendation... Push your comfort zone, but in small increments :).
 

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I notice when doing tight maneuvers like a 45-degree turnout or little tiny circles, that I feel very uncomfortable with the bars at full lock. For example, I'm doing a 45-degree turnout so I lock the bars to the left, step forward a bit with my left foot to lean the bike (slightly--darned thing is HEAVY) and ease on some gas. As soon as I start to move, my first instinct is to get the bar OFF full lock!


  • Do you think I just need more practice, to be comfortable with that full lock feeling?
  • Could I be not looking behind far enough?
  • Is there a trick to knowing how MUCH clutch and gas to use to make the bike swoop around at full lock?
  • Other suggestions?

I've seen other people do it live. My eyes tell me it can be done. My brain knows it. At the same time, my survival reactions tell me to steer well clear of full lock turns. :shrug:
Listen to DJ. You will get all types of advice. Listen to DJ. Oh, did I mention: Listen to DJ.
 

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FYI, trying to do a lock turn from a stop is a pretty good way to hurt yourself if you aren’t ready for that level of challenge yet.

It’s not a hard thing to do IMO once you are comfortable with full lock turns in general and proper use of the friction zone BUT when doing it from a stop if you hesitate/second guess yourself and try to put your foot down you are potentially in trouble as the bike will already be moving. If you plant your foot and that bike keeps moving the passenger floor board and then the saddle bag are likely to run over your leg. I’ve seen it happen. I KNEW the rider wasn’t ready to try the technique yet and I told him so VERY CLEARLY but he decided to try it anyway and he did get hurt.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
FYI, trying to do a lock turn from a stop is a pretty good way to hurt yourself if you aren’t ready for that level of challenge yet.

It’s not a hard thing to do IMO once you are comfortable with full lock turns in general and proper use of the friction zone BUT when doing it from a stop if you hesitate/second guess yourself and try to put your foot down you are potentially in trouble as the bike will already be moving. If you plant your foot and that bike keeps moving the passenger floor board and then the saddle bag are likely to run over your leg. I’ve seen it happen. I KNEW the rider wasn’t ready to try the technique yet and I told him so VERY CLEARLY but he decided to try it anyway and he did get hurt.
Yes. Of the half dozen bikes I've own, the Wing wants to suck my feet under the most. Maybe I'm leaving them on the ground longer because of the weight, or maybe it's something about the engine sticking out or those giant passenger floor boards, but I've had the bike nip at me more than once! She hasn't bitten me yet, but when she wants to dance, you better be ready to pickup your feet!
 

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Full lock is not so hard if you:
1. Keep eyes turned to where you are going
2. Keep clutch in the friction zone with the engine at 3K
3. Push on rear brake. If you push harder on rear brake, you will fall in. If you let off on rear break you will pop up.

Eys toward center, Keep revs up, clutch in friction zone and control your turn with the rear brake
 
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