GL1800Riders Forums banner

361 - 380 of 471 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
Anyone have the service manual? There has to be some way to determine a dead starter is dead even with the added complexity of the combined starter/generator. If not, that is pretty sad.
Fluke as you can see there are a number of components that could be verified if they are working correctly that lead to the ISG. I know if this were my bike I would be checking all relays and switches tied to the ISG.
I’ll dig up the wiring schematic also.


371072
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
Here is the circuit schematic Fluke. I noticed there is an inhibit wire running from the ECM to the ISG. Not sure what conditions would cause the ECM to send an inhibit IGS signal. I’m sure it’s a number of things the ECM is verifying before releasing the inhibit line.
371073

371074
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,242 Posts
One would assume that the same starter generator is in all the new goldwings. Certain parts of the world have the start/stop feature every time you come to a stop it kills the engine. In Canada especially these should get put through the ringer regularly with thousands and thousands of starting cycles.
Auto-start can be set to default to on or off, in the menus.
Switching modes during a ride is as simple as pushing the 'start' switch while the engine is running to toggle it on or off.

I rarely have it enabled on mine.
About the only time I enable it is in situations that I would have switched the 1832 to ACC -- like waiting for the opposing traffic in one of those one-way, pilot car construction zones.
So for us (Farmgal and I), the ISG starters likely doesn't operate any more frequently that the ones on the 1832's we ran.
 

·
Love The DCT
Joined
·
11,511 Posts
Thanks guys. I'm taking notes.
IMO, the decision making tree is laid out pretty good in the service manual. It tells you to check for loose connections. You did that and as I recall, you had a loose connection. Next is to do a battery check. Your battery voltage was low, so you put in a new battery. You also checked the fuses. You said the fuses were good. The bike still doesn’t start.

Check for DTC’s. Believe you said you have a DTC of 116-1. That is a ISG malfunction, faulty ISG. (Function Failure) Your Symptom/ Fail safe function is; “Engine cannot be restarted or charging function stops.” Your problem is “The engine cannot be restarted.” You then refer to page 4-74 in the service manual.

On page 4-74, you will see DTC 116-1 (ISG Malfunction) and the following are the steps listed.

1. DTC recheck.
Erase the DTC
Check the DTC with the MCS

Is DTC 116-1 indicated?
Yes - go to Step 2.
No - intermittent failure.

2. (Step 2) ISG Inspection
Replace ISG with a known good one.

Erase the DTC.
Check the DTC with the MCS

Is DTC 116-1 indicated?
Yes - Replace the ECM with a known good one and recheck.
No - Faulty original ISG.

The MCS is the Honda Diagnostics System and that software is on the tech’s computer.

Your dealer should be following these steps out of the service manual. The techs have the electronic version of the service manual on their computer.

Your dealer has a new ISG on it’s way. There still is a chance your ECM is faulty. They won’t know that until they install the new ISG and recheck to see if DTC 116-1 is indicated. Hopefully the new ISG will solve your problem.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #366
IMO, the decision making tree is laid out pretty good in the service manual. It tells you to check for loose connections. You did that and as I recall, you had a loose connection. Next is to to a battery check. Your battery voltage was low, so you put in a new battery. You also checked the fuses. You said the fuses were good. The bike still doesn’t start.

Check for DTC’s. Believe you said you have a DTC of 116-1. That is a ISG malfunction, faulty ISG. (Function Failure) Your Symptom/ Fail safe function is; “Engine cannot be restarted or charging function stops.” Your problem is “The engine cannot be restarted.” You then refer to page 4-74 in the service manual.

On page 4-74, you will see DTC 116-1 (ISG Malfunction) and the following are the steps listed.

1. DTC recheck.
Erase the DTC
Check the DTC with the MCS

Is DTC 116-1 indicated?
Yes - go to Step 2.
No - intermittent failure.

2. (Step 2) ISG Inspection
Replace ISG with a known good one.

Erase the DTC.
Check the DTC with the MCS

Is DTC 116-1 indicated?
Yes - Replace the ECM with a known good one and recheck.
No - Faulty original ISG.

The MCS is the Honda Diagnostics System and that software is on the tech’s computer.

Your dealer should be following these steps out of the service manual. The techs have the electronic version of the service manual on their computer.

Your dealer has a new ISG on it’s way. There still is a chance your ECM is faulty. They won’t know that until they install the new ISG and recheck to see if DTC 116-1 is indicated. Hopefully the new ISG will solve your problem.
Thank you. That's how they've proceeded.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
Since I’ve gone through all this, with my bike, I thought I’d add a few of my thoughts and observations of the process.

First. My no-start situation occurred in my garage, right after I had installed a NAV update. This was just Murphy’s Law messing with me. The update had nothing to do with the starter, but caused an extra day on the phone with Honda techs. Trouble code showed 116. When I called Honda customer service, I asked to speak with a tech that knew something about these bikes. They had a tech call me back and he assured me the NAV update couldn’t affect the starter. First time he had heard of a starter failure on these bikes. (Typical response)

Second. With service manual and several multimeters in hand, I started pulling plastic. It didn’t intimidate me since I’ve worked on industrial equipment, where the cost of the electrical controls alone, would buy several of these bikes. I started at the battery and used a meter to check for voltage at all the connections, relays, and switches. Every switch was supplying current when it was supposed to, and every switch was cutting power when it was supposed to. I checked current flow through every connector, no matter how well it was hidden.

When I was satisfied with power in the right places at the ECM and SCU (smart control unit), I called it quits, since I didn’t want to pull the fuel tank to get to the starter, plus it was under warranty.

Called the dealer and trailered the bike. I talked to a tech at the dealer and gave him a list of all the terminals that I had verified as working, saving him a lot of time by not removing all the plastic, as instructed in the service manual. I estimate that it took me at least 20 hours, for the testing I performed.

I picked the bike up, a week later, with a new ISG installed, that according to the service report was priced around $1400. No mention of hours involved to replace it. It’s been running fine for the last year, or so.

Sorry for the long post, but it gives you something to read until Gary’s bike gets fixed.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #370 (Edited)
Damn I hope this gets resolved soon! You're missing a lot of riding.
I'm missing a lot of riding, and making it worse (adding injury to injury), I'm missing a lot of California riding when traffic is light because of the quarantine. The initial few weeks of riding after the quarantine began were the most glorious California coastal and mountain riding in decades. Imagine the Pacific Coast Highway nearly devoid of cars on a weekend. Now they're coming back.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #371
Since I’ve gone through all this, with my bike, I thought I’d add a few of my thoughts and observations of the process.

First. My no-start situation occurred in my garage, right after I had installed a NAV update. This was just Murphy’s Law messing with me. The update had nothing to do with the starter, but caused an extra day on the phone with Honda techs. Trouble code showed 116. When I called Honda customer service, I asked to speak with a tech that knew something about these bikes. They had a tech call me back and he assured me the NAV update couldn’t affect the starter. First time he had heard of a starter failure on these bikes. (Typical response)

Second. With service manual and several multimeters in hand, I started pulling plastic. It didn’t intimidate me since I’ve worked on industrial equipment, where the cost of the electrical controls alone, would buy several of these bikes. I started at the battery and used a meter to check for voltage at all the connections, relays, and switches. Every switch was supplying current when it was supposed to, and every switch was cutting power when it was supposed to. I checked current flow through every connector, no matter how well it was hidden.

When I was satisfied with power in the right places at the ECM and SCU (smart control unit), I called it quits, since I didn’t want to pull the fuel tank to get to the starter, plus it was under warranty.

Called the dealer and trailered the bike. I talked to a tech at the dealer and gave him a list of all the terminals that I had verified as working, saving him a lot of time by not removing all the plastic, as instructed in the service manual. I estimate that it took me at least 20 hours, for the testing I performed.

I picked the bike up, a week later, with a new ISG installed, that according to the service report was priced around $1400. No mention of hours involved to replace it. It’s been running fine for the last year, or so.

Sorry for the long post, but it gives you something to read until Gary’s bike gets fixed.
Thanks for the analysis. I had seen your earlier post about this, and when Joe told me that the Honda rep had said that a bad ISG was unheard of, I said, "Nuh uh. Not unheard of by me or by Honda." Your experience sounds so much like my experience to date, and it gives me hope that the replacement ISG will solve the--or at least my--problem.

Now that there have been two (known) examples of this, perhaps there'll be some research within Honda to figure out the cause. I know it's too much to ask they'd tell us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,704 Posts
@ gkarasik After reading that Freyr had the same problem and code as you have and he got his bike fixed and back to him after a week at his dealer leads me to believe that maybe your dealer doesn't have a qualified tech to perform the diagnostics. :unsure:
I worked for 20 yrs as a forklift tech and my next 20 yrs in automotive and got sick and tired of hearing that same ole BS, "we've never heard of that problem". Lies, lies lies. Being a new bike I'm sure that Honda has every single problem reported in their data base. Sorry for your experience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gkarasik

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #373
@ gkarasik After reading that Freyr had the same problem and code as you have and he got his bike fixed and back to him after a week at his dealer leads me to believe that maybe your dealer doesn't have a qualified tech to perform the diagnostics. :unsure:
I worked for 20 yrs as a forklift tech and my next 20 yrs in automotive and got sick and tired of hearing that same ole BS, "we've never heard of that problem". Lies, lies lies. Being a new bike I'm sure that Honda has every single problem reported in their data base. Sorry for your experience.
Thanks, Paul. I'm surprised at how much it helps to have people's encouragement about this. It's a little like the television version of Peter Pan when the audience is asked to applaud for the ailing Tinkerbell (no, I'm not transitioning), and she recovers because of the support we give her.

Having a bike as generally well-engineered, -manufactured, and reliable as the Goldwing is a two-edged sword. We don't have a lot of problems, but that translates into multi-line shops--my shop sells five brands and services even more--not seeing and not working on a lot of these newer Goldwings and so not having a lot of experience with them. On-line courses can take us only so far; it's the hands-on stuff that makes it all real.

The "that's never happened before in all of human history" response is infuriating for too many reasons to go into, other than that it's almost always a lie, and the majority of the very few times it isn't a lie, it's a cover for ignorance and contempt. Way preferable--and more respectful of me--would be, "Gee, I have no experience with that one, but I guess I will now."

In this particular case, I am confident everyone involved is trying his best while groping along in the darkness. Given Freyr's experience, I have significant hope, and should the replacement ISG fail, given Murf's post about the shop manual's decision tree, there's an option after that, and ultimately, given that the great state in which I live has a lemon-law that covers motorcycles, there's an option after that as well. There's a discernible way forward through all this.

Among my major concerns is that this looms over all of us here and over all these bikes in the wild. Calling it an anomaly may comfort the accountants at Honda, but it's nervous-making for any newer-model Goldwinger on a long ride. It's not like we can carry ISGs in our spares kits.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
314 Posts
I guess I look at things differently, after spending 35 years troubleshooting industrial equipment, most of which didn’t have manuals. If things didn’t break, I wouldn’t have a job. Imagine going to work, every morning, knowing that you had to fix everything that broke during the night. It gives you a different attitude on life in general.

But, bikes are personal......Anything that happens to the bike, we tend to take personally, like Honda deliberately wanted to screw us. It’s just a machine. Somebody built it. Somebody can fix it. It’s not a breakdown. It’s an opportunity to learn more about the bike

Try working on a 400 Ton, hydraulic press, built in 1935, where the only manual is written in German. I think we bombed the manufacturing plant, during the war.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
151 Posts
I did a wee bit of research into ISG's. Came across a great technical paper on them. I won't bore you but I do copy and paste a few key observations here for your review. I withhold further comments!

The main breakpoint of the ISGs is that they require
specialised power systems.
The design of an ISG is a great challenge for professionals
because the ISG drive's requirements are quite severe:
• High starting torque at most unfavourable operating
conditions.
• Wide speed range in generator mode.
• High efficiency in wide speed range (600÷8000 rpm).
• Vibrations of up to 20 g in crankshaft mounted systems.
• Cycle life over 250 000 stop/start cycles in 10 years.
• Temperature: -30°C to 115°C ambient, +180°C under the
hood.
• Good serviceability, high reliability, acceptable cost, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
I did a wee bit of research into ISG's. Came across a great technical paper on them. I won't bore you but I do copy and paste a few key observations here for your review. I withhold further comments!


• Temperature: -30°C to 115°C ambient
-30 C ambient doesn't cut it for me. We get colder than that in the winter in Winnipeg.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #377
I did a wee bit of research into ISG's. Came across a great technical paper on them. I won't bore you but I do copy and paste a few key observations here for your review. I withhold further comments!


The design of an ISG is a great challenge for professionals
because the ISG drive's requirements are quite severe:
• High starting torque at most unfavourable operating
conditions.
• Wide speed range in generator mode.
• High efficiency in wide speed range (600÷8000 rpm).
• Vibrations of up to 20 g in crankshaft mounted systems.
• Cycle life over 250 000 stop/start cycles in 10 years.
• Temperature: -30°C to 115°C ambient, +180°C under the
hood.
• Good serviceability, high reliability, acceptable cost, etc.
Thank you, Paul. Your first point ("The main breakpoint of the ISGs is that they require specialised power systems.") is the one that most boggles my mind when I think that Honda didn't put, at minimum, a low-voltage warning light on these bikes (not to mention a voltage readout). For one thing, how hard would it have been? For another, this machine is exceptionally voltage dependent. For its systems to work, so for it to work, it needs the proper voltage as much as it needs gasoline.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
717 Posts
Thank you, Paul. Your first point ("The main breakpoint of the ISGs is that they require specialised power systems.") is the one that most boggles my mind when I think that Honda didn't put, at minimum, a low-voltage warning light on these bikes (not to mention a voltage readout). For one thing, how hard would it have been? For another, this machine is exceptionally voltage dependent. For its systems to work, so for it to work, it needs the proper voltage as much as it needs gasoline.
Since we don't know what exactly happened and when it happened it seems pointless to blame Honda for not providing a voltmeter. Ex., did the loose battery connection fry the ISG early in the ride that say and create a battery-powered total loss electrical system and when it reached the low voltage threshold it triggered the MIL for low voltage. Did you check the manual and see if the MIL or check engine light that Honda provided blinked a pattern for low voltage that day it quit? On the lowly 700 DCT there are many MIL indications for low voltage. Post #1 described a pattern of blinking MIL and by a few more moments the battery was stone dead at 11 volts. The bike stops and won't start again ............... then the stored DTC codes that could tell the shop tech and Honda area rep what happened were erased. Did the tech ask why you erased the DTC codes?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
658 Posts
Since we don't know what exactly happened and when it happened it seems pointless to blame Honda for not providing a voltmeter. Ex., did the loose battery connection fry the ISG early in the ride that say and create a battery-powered total loss electrical system and when it reached the low voltage threshold it triggered the MIL for low voltage. Did you check the manual and see if the MIL or check engine light that Honda provided blinked a pattern for low voltage that day it quit? On the lowly 700 DCT there are many MIL indications for low voltage. Post #1 described a pattern of blinking MIL and by a few more moments the battery was stone dead at 11 volts. The bike stops and won't start again ............... then the stored DTC codes that could tell the shop tech and Honda area rep what happened were erased. Did the tech ask why you erased the DTC codes?
The OP did what he could troubleshooting so that he possibly could get the bike back running and not be in the situation the bike is in now with the bike stalled out at the dealer with red tape and runaround
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,327 Posts
Discussion Starter #380
Since we don't know what exactly happened and when it happened it seems pointless to blame Honda for not providing a voltmeter. Ex., did the loose battery connection fry the ISG early in the ride that say and create a battery-powered total loss electrical system and when it reached the low voltage threshold it triggered the MIL for low voltage. Did you check the manual and see if the MIL or check engine light that Honda provided blinked a pattern for low voltage that day it quit? On the lowly 700 DCT there are many MIL indications for low voltage. Post #1 described a pattern of blinking MIL and by a few more moments the battery was stone dead at 11 volts. The bike stops and won't start again ............... then the stored DTC codes that could tell the shop tech and Honda area rep what happened were erased. Did the tech ask why you erased the DTC codes?
I did not check that, and it would have been smart. The MIL light did blink what could have been a pattern, but I had insufficient time to identify it in the short ride to the intersection where Goldey quit. It seemed to repeat about 20 seconds long, then about 10 seconds off, but that happened only a few times, and I kept thinking it was merely intermittent. It could have been a warning, though. It's not in the owner's manual, and I don't have a factory manual.

You are absolutely right that we haven't--and we may never--clearly identified the cause as low voltage. It could be a coincidence. My feeling about a specific low-voltage warning is more general than this particular experience. A low-voltage warning would have immediately caused me to stop the bike, and a quick check would have immediately lead to my finding the loose battery terminal. A voltage readout would be useful for diagnostics. It's just my opinion, but I feel strongly that a machine with this much in the way of electronics, and which is so dependent on proper voltages, should provide a window into its charging state. Surely that's as important as a tire-pressure warning.
 
361 - 380 of 471 Posts
Top