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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought my 02 last Fall. It had been a dealer demo and had 2200 miles on it. None of the recalls had been done yet, but they were all completed before I took delivery.

During conversation about the frame crack repair, my dealer told me that he understood that the cracks were caused when Honda changed the method of welding the frame assy in production. Why they changed is anybodies guess. Perhaps somebody in engineering thought a different process or welding method would be better. Or perhaps it was thought to reduce costs. We will probably never know. The fact is, that whatever they did was a mistake. If these new cracks that are showing up in the rear frame area are in the same VIN series as the machines that were in the first recall, then we can assume that the same problem is causing them.

I have no idea if the cause that my dealer told me about is true. I am only passing it on for what it is worth. Could be total BS for all I know.

I have been a sales engineer for manufacturing tooling for close to 40 years and I deal with manufacturing engineers in all kinds of industries, and I can say that through personal experience, this stuff happens.

In my opinion, the only way Honda is ever going to be clear of this nightmare is to totally REPLACE the frames in all Goldwings that are known to have been built during that series. Of course that would be hugely expensive, and I don't see it happening. Accordingly, it is very likely that the resale value of all 01 and newer Wings will suffer, especially those that fall into the VIN range where problems were discovered.

It is also possible that Honda will get hit with another lawsuit like the one they just settled regarding the overheating problem. That one wasn't safety related. This frame cracking problem is, and is far more serious.

This rewelding business leaves me uncomfortable. Proper welding is a very tricky business on aluminum tubing, and if not properly done can create more problems than it fixes. I seriously doubt that all these frame rewelds are properly done. :(

I sure love my Wing, and I hope this all gets sorted out.

If anybody has more info I would sure like to hear it. :chat:
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
sjvanepps said:
I bought my 02 last Fall.
In my opinion, the only way Honda is ever going to be clear of this nightmare is to totally REPLACE the frames in all Goldwings that are known to have been built during that series. Of course that would be hugely expensive, and I don't see it happening. :
I agree with this 100%, it's the right thing to do however won't happen. Frankly I think the integrity and strength of the frame should be in question as the possibility of other non weld crack issues surfaced recently. Why not have a stronger steel frame?? I'm no frame expert but sheesh seems like an important part of the bike to not skimp on. :roll:
 

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Reweld

I just found what looks like a crack in the left side subframe today on the inside in area of passenger foot peg. Remove foot peg and look at inside of the weld that is behind rear most peg bolt hole. 02 ABS not in recall vin range. 18050 miles on it. :oops:
 

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Jerry,
If what you are looking at is Powdercoated Silver it is the Rear Triangle of the Main Frame.
If it is Black then it is the Saddlebag / Trunk Subframe.
I do hope you arn't actually seeing a crack, Fingers X'd.

Jerry
 

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Cracks

Rear triangle of main frame. It is in silver power coat. It is under the passenger footpeg area. The weld to the rear of the rear passenger foot peg bolt. The "crack" is on the inside. You must look from underneath and on left side. It seems to be coming from the rearmost part of the triangle weld. I found it because I had bike on Pit Bull at the top setting. That allowed me to get completly under and see the area. The other bikes were layed on their side during the weld process or checking frame afterwards.
 

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Vendor
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22,244 Posts
I am afraid the idea of having Honda replace frames may not be a viable option.

If I understand the laws correctly anyway. Here is what I believe to be correct, but then again, I am no expert on legal matters....

You can't legally replace the frame and reuse the same VIN number. And if a new VIN is assigned to the frame, most states will now tag the bike as a "Salvage Title". This means the bike will be next to impossible to sell. I don't think many owners would accept a new frame if it meant that the bike would be re-titled as a Salvaged Bike. I know I wouldn't.

If this is true, that means Honda has very few options. The best way I can see that they would handle this whole fiasco is to offer a huge trade in allowance toward a 2005 model. But knowing how they operate, I doubt they will do this. I expect to see them take the very cheapest solution. Which probably means yet more re-welding. Sad, but true.

Before anything can happen, we first have to get NHTSA involved. And the only way to get them involved is to have good data on existing failures. Once they are convinced this is a widespread problem, they will re-open the existing Safety Investigation, or possibly start a whole new one. I can't give you an exact figure on how many bikes have to crack before that happens, but I can say the more data the better our chances. In light of the previous failures it may only take as few as three, which it looks like we already have. But that may not be enough. So if anyone finds any cracks, it is imperative that they get reported to NHTSA asap. You can either send me the data, and I will send it directly to the investigator, or you can do it yourself on the NHTSA website (which is a somewhat slower process).
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Fred:

Thanks for your comments. I am aware of the problems with frame relacement, ie salvage titles etc, which is why I opined that frame replacement was probably not going to happen. Plus the fact that cost wise, Honda isn't going to do that anyway.

I very much appreciate your efforts on behalf of us all.

I continue to have faith that Honda (who I have great respect for) will get this ironed out, and soon. This problem has the potential to be a disaster for their reputation as the maker of the premier touring motorcycle.

I can see Yamaha, BMW, Kaw, and others licking their chops. I hope all they get is chapped lips.

Take care.
 

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Anyone besides me wondering if these new frame cracks might have been caused by improper tiedown methods? like useing the rear crashbars to anchor the bike and overtightening the tiedown straps?
 

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Honda uses the crash bars to anchor the bikes in their crates so either Honda is helping create the problem or they are acceptable points to use. :?

Just remember - When in doubt blame the owner first. Honda does and they are very effective at it too. :(

JMHO, Jerry :wink:
 

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cycledude said:
Anyone besides me wondering if these new frame cracks might have been caused by improper tiedown methods? like useing the rear crashbars to anchor the bike and overtightening the tiedown straps?
The only time this bike has beed trailed is to bring to the Dealer to inspect the frame cracks. By the way I do know how to trailer a Motorcycle properly.
This dog will not hunt.
 

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My previous statement that Honda can not legally replace the frames and re-use the VIN may be incorrect. According to NHTSA, Honda can (and has) reframe a bike and re-use the old VIN.

I am not a legal expert, so I can only go on what I am told. Someone else may be able to shed more light on this, but from what I now understand, this is pefectly legal for Honda to do. Although I don't know if different states have different laws governing this.
 

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Fred,
If MH can re-frame legally under federal law then state laws would not stand. This falls under interstate commerse. Federal law is always supreme.
 

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With access to a mechanical engineer and my understanding the cost analysis of manufacturing I can see where MH ran afowl.... and I think they wanted to push this model to production with the loss of sales to BMW. Remember the year before the 1800 the BMW was listed as one of he premier touring bikes.....

I'm dismayed at the way MH (mother Honda) has approached this problem and the way they've handled it... I'm guessing that the power of the internet caught them with their pants down with respect to overheating problem... and my personal opinion is that there were some bikes with an issue.... however I've never met anyone on the GL1800.org board that actucally had a bike boil over.....

IMHO they have stumbled.... and its not a little one... but they've fallen flat on their nose with the problems with this bike... and the frame issue and the power of the internet has effected their sales....

Remember they have lots of experience making bikes with alloy frames.... this a big issue....

I'd personally be happy with some kind of trade in program where for lets say $5,000 I could have a new bike with the same accessories I have on mine... I'm at an age where my next purchase is going to be my last.... I'm only riding 15-20 K a year now...

Thanks for listening to my needing to vent.....

Jim
 

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BMW Sales

jelag,

One comment on your post re: Honda being afraid of BMW sales threat. The amount of market share that BMW has is insignificant when compared to the Honda or Yamaha or Kawasaki markets. If BMW sells 20,000 bikes a year in the US, I'd be surprised. Just my opinion.
 

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Young Buck
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Re: BMW Sales

bcmc58 said:
If BMW sells 20,000 bikes a year in the US, I'd be surprised. Just my opinion.
Here's the BMW MC sales figures that I was able to find in just a few minutes time.

1999 - 10088
2000 - 12047
2001 - 13023
2002 - 13507
2003 - 15299

Give them three or four more years, and they may hit 20,000 units a year.
 

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BMW

Thanks Mr. Fenwick. Maybe, but I doubt it.
 

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R. Fenwick,
Please document your source or Gary thinks he has won. What I find sad is that the casual reader thinks that also. Spin it Gary!

Gary,
I'm with Laserman. You make me sick!
 

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Young Buck
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Tater said:
R. Fenwick,
Please document your source or Gary thinks he has won.
Sorry guys. Gary is right. BMW sales in the US is significantly less than 20,000 units a year.

Allrighty then... Here's where I pulled those numbers from... Go look for yourselves.

The 1999 sales figure is in this article:
http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/news?aid=1&sid=8

The 2000 sales figure is in this article:
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/motor ... cle316.htm

The 2001 sales figure is in this article.
http://www.americanmotor.com/news.cfm?NEWSID=1895

The 2002 and 2003 sales figures are in this article.
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthu ... sp?id=1942

Tater said:
I'm with Laserman. You make me sick!
Who are you referring to with the "sick" comment...?
 

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R. Fenwick,
Sorry. I fixed it.

While I have you. I talked with you last year and you mentioned a large bike shop in IL. I am going to Quincy in May. What was the bike shop's name and location.
 
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