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If changing anything on the bike impairs the original engineered design, how do they account for the variety of riders weight? After all, we are talking about changes to the original design, which I would think includes weight. One rider could weigh 105lbs while the next guy could weigh over 400. Notes on the saddlebag and trunk warn of exceeding 20lbs because it might change the balance of the bike. Really? but taking miss widestride Matilda for a ride doesn't?
Now, don't ya think a lawyer would have to prove that the CT actually caused an accident rather than just being on the bike? That goes back to my previous point of rider reaction time. Some riders out right freeze up and do nothing to avoid and accident. Would that be attributed to the CT, recurve windshield, missing reflector off the saddle bag or maybe the cup holder on the handle bars.
Motorcycles are engineered with a weight range in mind. In the manual it provides a max weight. Go over that, and you've gone over the design limit.

You're arguing common sense. Little of this process is contrained by reason. Lawyers on different sides of an issue spin facts into a story they hope a judge or jury will vote for. Rare is the lawyer who will tell you that a civil suit is a sure win. The smart ones will say, "Well it's never a sure thing, but I believe we've got a good chance to win." If you're blood-alcohol is too high and they have a document that shows that, they will argue you're impaired. They most likely won't argue reaction times unless they've got a doctor saying, "I have examined this rider, and he/she is neurologically impaired, and I told him/her never to operate a motorcycle." If they have that, you bet they'll argue it, but without that they'd consider the possibility of getting such an argument past a judge or jury, and then they'd probably say, "No, that dog won't hunt." (I once had a lawyer say that to me.)

So now that lawyers are starting to consider this "what tires did they have on their wheels" angle, and given the amount of "DO NOT DO THIS" advice published by both motorcycle and tire makers, it would not be a stretch to show all those warnings and to convince a typical, non-motorcycle-riding juror, one who thinks we're a bunch of wild-eyed, anti-social, chain-swinging maniacs, that we'd deliberately scoffed at all that clearly printed, widely disseminated, easily available advice and carelessly endangered our passengers and other law-abiding citizens riding in cars where we should all have been in the first place.

Fuss and fume all you want. Tell lawyer jokes. It simply doesn't matter what you know to be true. All that will matter at the end of a trial is what a lawyer has convinced a judge or jury is true. If a judge or jury doesn't buy the premise, you're off the hook. If a judge or jury buys it, you're on the hook. The end.

So once again: This "what kind of tire was it wearing" issue has now poked its head above the horizon. Hungry-hyena lawyers are aprowling. Make of it what you will. Fuss and fume. Tell yourself whatever soothes you. Ridicule and insult whoever warns you. It is what it is. Ride in peace. (Fill in whatever cliche I have left out.) No one cares what tires you're wearing except you. (And just maybe an opposing lawyer.)
 

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The lawyers can parade all the "experts" in the world in front of a judge but the bottom line is that there is no zero evidence to show CT's are unsafe. It's all just opinion. I realize that courts are often irrational but I refuse to let somebody else's lies jeopardize my safety. If anything, CT's PREVENT accidents!
 

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I wonder if those ambulance chasers would like to pursue a case against tire makers for failing to develop a m/c runflat.
 

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No, Henny Penny....the sky is in fact, intact.
 
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Discussion Starter #45
Thanks for the explanation, makes sense. Just curious how Orange County Choppers got away with it all these years without engineers? :)
I understand the question to really mean shops like Orange County choppers. So I google and asked if OCC had an engineer. After reading the attached article, possibly a modern day answer might have more to do with molding software being used. I believe one can not only design using modeling software, but also use the software to analyses the design. Possibly actual engineers may not be needed. However, in direct answer to your question, according to the attached blog, OCC does have an engineer on staff.

 

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Discussion Starter #46
If changing anything on the bike impairs the original engineered design, how do they account for the variety of riders weight? After all, we are talking about changes to the original design, which I would think includes weight. One rider could weigh 105lbs while the next guy could weigh over 400. Notes on the saddlebag and trunk warn of exceeding 20lbs because it might change the balance of the bike. Really? but taking miss widestride Matilda for a ride doesn't?
Now, don't ya think a lawyer would have to prove that the CT actually caused an accident rather than just being on the bike? That goes back to my previous point of rider reaction time. Some riders out right freeze up and do nothing to avoid and accident. Would that be attributed to the CT, recurve windshield, missing reflector off the saddle bag or maybe the cup holder on the handle bars?

Good points and I cannot answer them all. However, regarding weight, 5th gens very in cargo weight. Ones with airbags and ABS cannot quite carry as much as ones that are not equipped with those features. Your Wing's max payload weight will be listed in your Owner Manual. Generally speaking, it probably gonna be between 405 and 418lbs. Therefore, I know that this may break your heart, but you might want to leave "miss hot pants" behind.

As for the CT ... I'm sure if an attorney can prove a CT was the sole cause of an accident, that would be great; however, maybe to a jury a strong probably factor might be enough.
 

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I understand the question to really mean shops like Orange County choppers. So I google and asked if OCC had an engineer. After reading the attached article, possibly a modern day answer might have more to do with molding software being used. I believe one can not only design using modeling software, but also use the software to analyses the design. Possibly actual engineers may not be needed. However, in direct answer to your question, according to the attached blog, OCC does have an engineer on staff.

Thanks for the answer. I was just wondering as I've watched that show and had to wonder how safe are some of their creations. I think ultimately, engineer or not, the responsibility and liability will be on the shop and its owners. I guess, like others have said, if someone wants to sue you they will find a reason. But I agree that the best way to minimize liability is to have good engineering practices.
 

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Very interesting topic here. I have considered trying the CT route and really like the idea. When I was ready for new rubber on my ‘Wing I ended up using the E-4’s mostly due to not finding a tire shop willing to mount a CT on my MC wheel or having the right equipment and expertise of doing it myself. The one m/c shop that I would trust and that used to do this stopped due to their concerns over these “liability issues”. The link GoldWingrGreg first shared certainly opens up my eyes a little wider. Trial lawyers can and most often will pursue any avenue that may sway the outcome of litigation in the favor of their client. After trucking long distance for many years, I can’t tell you of the number of suits filed against trucking companies and drivers after an accident where “evidence“ is obtained from the trucking company’s records and the driver’s personal info by lawyers trying to sway the opinions of jurors and/or leveraging for the out of court settlement. One of the more outrageous settlements I’ve known about was when a lady driving drunk ran a stop sign and t-boned a truck. There were witnesses that stated the truck driver was operating safely and within the posted speed limit. His hours of service were up to date and legal. The lady driving drunk was cited for DUI and failure to stop at the stop sign. Her lawyer obtained an $87,000 out of court settlement for her from the trucking company. The leverage used? The drunk lady was also pregnant. The lawyers for the trucking company reasoned that settlement accompanied with a full release of liability would be less costly than defending an additional suit filed for damages should her child be born with any deformities that might be attributed to the accident. The very accident caused by her, her irresponsible decision to get drunk while pregnant, and driving while drunk. The trucking company has deep pockets. If the rider of a motorcycle operating with a CT has deep pockets would a trial lawyer not try to clean house with him as well? The insanity within our legal system today simply baffles me. 😳
 

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Very interesting topic here. I have considered trying the CT route and really like the idea. When I was ready for new rubber on my ‘Wing I ended up using the E-4’s mostly due to not finding a tire shop willing to mount a CT on my MC wheel or having the right equipment and expertise of doing it myself. The one m/c shop that I would trust and that used to do this stopped due to their concerns over these “liability issues”. The link GoldWingrGreg first shared certainly opens up my eyes a little wider. Trial lawyers can and most often will pursue any avenue that may sway the outcome of litigation in the favor of their client. After trucking long distance for many years, I can’t tell you of the number of suits filed against trucking companies and drivers after an accident where “evidence“ is obtained from the trucking company’s records and the driver’s personal info by lawyers trying to sway the opinions of jurors and/or leveraging for the out of court settlement. One of the more outrageous settlements I’ve known about was when a lady driving drunk ran a stop sign and t-boned a truck. There were witnesses that stated the truck driver was operating safely and within the posted speed limit. His hours of service were up to date and legal. The lady driving drunk was cited for DUI and failure to stop at the stop sign. Her lawyer obtained an $87,000 out of court settlement for her from the trucking company. The leverage used? The drunk lady was also pregnant. The lawyers for the trucking company reasoned that settlement accompanied with a full release of liability would be less costly than defending an additional suit filed for damages should her child be born with any deformities that might be attributed to the accident. The very accident caused by her, her irresponsible decision to get drunk while pregnant, and driving while drunk. The trucking company has deep pockets. If the rider of a motorcycle operating with a CT has deep pockets would a trial lawyer not try to clean house with him as well? The insanity within our legal system today simply baffles me. 😳
I agree with everything you've said, but I quibble with the last part. In my view, the problem is not with the legal system. The problem is ultimately with juries, with we the people being swayed by emotion and not logic. I was once foreman of a jury that heard an elevator-accident case where the elevator company decided not to settle but to fight. What we the jury heard turned out to be the same kind of bogus posturing you describe above. At the end of our deliberation, in which everyone finally agreed there was no there there, several people nevertheless said versions of, "Well, he (meaning the plaintiff) wasn't really injured, but we should give him something for his trouble."
 
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