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I understand your point.

Obviously, the solution to address your concern about the accuracy of your torque wrench is to simply have it calibrated. Then you can wrench worry free.

Tim
My interest is more about discussing the idea.
 

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I was referring to the many forum members who complain vociferously about the high hourly labour rates dealerships charge.

If every technician used a torque wrench on every fastener, imagine how much time that would add to everyday jobs, and how much that would add to the labour charge. I can see the frugal folks' blood vessels bursting now.

Tim
Flat rate manuals used to determine charges should include the use of torque wrenches when specified.

If a customer is paying by the actual hours then they are simply hiring a handyman.
 

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Flat rate manuals used to determine charges should include the use of torque wrenches when specified.

If a customer is paying by the actual hours then they are simply hiring a handyman.
Flat rate manuals sucked. Especially when doing warranty work for VW. You only got paid half of the time you had into it. You never met your 40 hours/week quota that the service manager demanded and reminded you of in your review. I told him where he could put that warranty work. Then there was the favoritism, some guys went out drinking and bowling with the boss, so they got the gravy jobs. They literally stood around smoking cigarettes making flat rate while us others had all the transmission, front end, warranty, a/c, recalls, etc . Because we had specialties they didn’t. Now, regarding torquing fasteners during a repair, as far as the manufacturer goes, it is expected, it doesn’t have to be written. If it wasn’t done correctly and came back, you would redo the work as a ‘comeback’ and you would do it for no flat rate. That makes it quite hard to meet your weekly quota. And if a service tech cost the dealership too much money in comebacks, he was terminated. Usually on a Monday morning. I don’t miss it. Cars suck.😇
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Flat rate manuals sucked. Especially when doing warranty work for VW. You only got paid half of the time you had into it. You never met your 40 hours/week quota that the service manager demanded and reminded you of in your review. I told him where he could put that warranty work. Then there was the favoritism, some guys went out drinking and bowling with the boss, so they got the gravy jobs. They literally stood around smoking cigarettes making flat rate while us others had all the transmission, front end, warranty, a/c, recalls, etc . Because we had specialties they didn’t. Now, regarding torquing fasteners during a repair, as far as the manufacturer goes, it is expected, it doesn’t have to be written. If it wasn’t done correctly and came back, you would redo the work as a ‘comeback’ and you would do it for no flat rate. That makes it quite hard to meet your weekly quota. And if a service tech cost the dealership too much money in comebacks, he was terminated. Usually on a Monday morning. I don’t miss it. Cars suck.😇

Nothing new here.......................its called REAL life. Not saying it's fair/unfair/right/immoral etc.,..... its REAL life. ( but, often its not fair ) I hear you.
 

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Good to know. What I'm wondering is, How many people here ever have had it done? Millions of us have used torque wrenches blithely believing that we're putting our engines together correctly. Most of us assume these wrenches read close to correctly, but I wonder if many of them don't.
Mine get recalibrated once a year. A requirement as I use them on aircraft too. I have a local aircraft repair station do them.

As far as knowing the torque values for fasteners, there are standard torque values dependent on fastener size, thread pitch and type of force the fastener is subject to. If you don't have a manual showing specific torque you can look up the standard torque for that size and pitch fastener and it will be within the tolerances.
 

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Torque wrenches will easily go out of cal if dropped. You never know how a new torque wrench was handled before you bought it. If some gorilla was tossing it around in the warehouse or stocking the shelf it was probably knocked out of cal. Even a brand new torque wrench should be calibrated. We cannot use a torque wrench on an aircraft unless we can document that it's been calibrated within the last 12 months.
 

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I've seen what can happen if the lug nuts were not tight enough. Rear wheel wobbled off. Bolts sheared off. Lucky there wasn't a major disaster. No, it wasn't my bike.
 

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Thank you. I kind of expected something like what you've said. Life's experience has shown me that theer is NO WAY some mechanics are torquing the nuts properly. My own expereinces..........
11- 12 bikes..... 1/2 million miles or so...........over 31 years on a bike................. I HAVE NEVER had a mechanic outside of a dealership ask me what the torque values were for ANY bike I've ever owned. There is NO WAY in heck ( couldn't say the 'H' word....MODS ) they either looked it up or just happened to know the correct values. No way.

And, I could be wrong, but I doubt it, I don't believe ALL dealership mechanics are doing ti properly either.

As an aside to this post, I have not done any work on any of my previous bikes except for oil changes, plugs, filters. Easy enough. Now that I know A BIT more and am doing my own work except for 'crazy' stuff that is over my abilities/tools/ etc., it literally scares me when I think of how much can go wrong ( $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ) if not done properly.

# 2
Well, I work on clients’ bikes nearly 7 days a week, seems like almost 52 weeks every year. There are definitely torque values assigned to every nut and bolt on these machines, and I’m not ashamed to say that I don’t torque each and every single nut and bolt I put back on.
That being said, most experienced mechanics have these values embedded in muscle memory from years and years of applying just so much torque to this bolt and that nut, etc, etc.
Here’s the trick. The torque value is assigned to the the fastener according to three mostly unchanging characteristics. First and most importantly, the size of the fastener, and fairly obviously, the larger a fastener is, the more torque it will handle. Second is the types of materials being fastened together and the clearance (or lack thereof) expected between them. And thirdly, any functional displacement that might be expected within the materials being fastened together.
As an example, the brake caliper bracket that mounts to a fork leg perhaps. The 6mm bolts are torqued to 7-8 ftlbs, the 8mm bots to 18-20ftlbs. But in this case, the items being fastened are NOT expected to move in relation to each other, so if one applies what almost invariably turns out to be much more tension on those bolts than is called for, nearly no harm will come of it…until the next guy tries to remove the fasteners.
But look at another example where the pieces ARE expected to move, like the camshaft journal caps. There is an expectation that once the cap is torqued in place, there WILL be so many thousandths of a millimeter between the caps and the journals, although the cap and the head won’t be moving in relation to each other, over tightening them is risking a reduction in the gap required for proper oil lubrication to take place.
One more example, the axle bolt, which basically holds a bunch of NON-MOVING parts together, a true statement as nothing that is in direct contact with the axle shaft actually rotates, spins, or slides ON the axle (with the notable exception on some bikes that use a shouldered axle bolt that eliminates the need for a spacer on one side.) The issue here is that the wheel bearings that are set in their place by the spacers that are held in place by the axle. Over tightening the axle is prone to applying excessive linear pressure on the bearings and subject to cause accelerated wear of the bearings…so I do my damndest to torque them to spec.
Spec? These specs, as mentioned before, go by the size of the fastener. 99% of the bikes that roll through my garage have a 19mm rear axle, regardless of the size tool needed, that torques to 72.5ftlbs. I don’t look it up, and I don’t bother with the last .5ftlbs. Likewise, im well aware that the bikes with driveshafts and final drive members, get torqued much higher, 85-95ftlbs, and the single sided chain drives with a center wheel nut…upwards of 170.
Okay, I don’t look up EVERY torque spec. But I see the same bikes over and over, and I do KNOW most of their torque specs. As far as the oddballs for which I don’t know the specs, well, if it’s a non-moving part, I’ll assume the spec is reasonably close to any other 6, 8, 10, or 12mm bolt and muscle memory will be confidently applied. And if I’m dealing with moving parts, rest assured, I’m looking up the torque specified to that particular bike.
Just because a mechanic isn’t using a torque wrench on every single fastener, doesn’t mean he or she isn’t a good mechanic.
 

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Well, I work on clients’ bikes nearly 7 days a week, seems like almost 52 weeks every year. There are definitely torque values assigned to every nut and bolt on these machines, and I’m not ashamed to say that I don’t torque each and every single nut and bolt I put back on.
That being said, most experienced mechanics have these values embedded in muscle memory from years and years of applying just so much torque to this bolt and that nut, etc, etc.
Here’s the trick. The torque value is assigned to the the fastener according to three mostly unchanging characteristics. First and most importantly, the size of the fastener, and fairly obviously, the larger a fastener is, the more torque it will handle. Second is the types of materials being fastened together and the clearance (or lack thereof) expected between them. And thirdly, any functional displacement that might be expected within the materials being fastened together.
As an example, the brake caliper bracket that mounts to a fork leg perhaps. The 6mm bolts are torqued to 7-8 ftlbs, the 8mm bots to 18-20ftlbs. But in this case, the items being fastened are NOT expected to move in relation to each other, so if one applies what almost invariably turns out to be much more tension on those bolts than is called for, nearly no harm will come of it…until the next guy tries to remove the fasteners.
But look at another example where the pieces ARE expected to move, like the camshaft journal caps. There is an expectation that once the cap is torqued in place, there WILL be so many thousandths of a millimeter between the caps and the journals, although the cap and the head won’t be moving in relation to each other, over tightening them is risking a reduction in the gap required for proper oil lubrication to take place.
One more example, the axle bolt, which basically holds a bunch of NON-MOVING parts together, a true statement as nothing that is in direct contact with the axle shaft actually rotates, spins, or slides ON the axle (with the notable exception on some bikes that use a shouldered axle bolt that eliminates the need for a spacer on one side.) The issue here is that the wheel bearings that are set in their place by the spacers that are held in place by the axle. Over tightening the axle is prone to applying excessive linear pressure on the bearings and subject to cause accelerated wear of the bearings…so I do my damndest to torque them to spec.
Spec? These specs, as mentioned before, go by the size of the fastener. 99% of the bikes that roll through my garage have a 19mm rear axle, regardless of the size tool needed, that torques to 72.5ftlbs. I don’t look it up, and I don’t bother with the last .5ftlbs. Likewise, im well aware that the bikes with driveshafts and final drive members, get torqued much higher, 85-95ftlbs, and the single sided chain drives with a center wheel nut…upwards of 170.
Okay, I don’t look up EVERY torque spec. But I see the same bikes over and over, and I do KNOW most of their torque specs. As far as the oddballs for which I don’t know the specs, well, if it’s a non-moving part, I’ll assume the spec is reasonably close to any other 6, 8, 10, or 12mm bolt and muscle memory will be confidently applied. And if I’m dealing with moving parts, rest assured, I’m looking up the torque specified to that particular bike.
Just because a mechanic isn’t using a torque wrench on every single fastener, doesn’t mean he or she isn’t a good mechanic.
Yours is exactly the real world, experienced, practical response I would expect from the vast majority of highly competent, professional technicians in the motorcycle and automotive industries.

Tim
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Well, I work on clients’ bikes nearly 7 days a week, seems like almost 52 weeks every year. There are definitely torque values assigned to every nut and bolt on these machines, and I’m not ashamed to say that I don’t torque each and every single nut and bolt I put back on.
That being said, most experienced mechanics have these values embedded in muscle memory from years and years of applying just so much torque to this bolt and that nut, etc, etc.
Here’s the trick. The torque value is assigned to the the fastener according to three mostly unchanging characteristics. First and most importantly, the size of the fastener, and fairly obviously, the larger a fastener is, the more torque it will handle. Second is the types of materials being fastened together and the clearance (or lack thereof) expected between them. And thirdly, any functional displacement that might be expected within the materials being fastened together.
As an example, the brake caliper bracket that mounts to a fork leg perhaps. The 6mm bolts are torqued to 7-8 ftlbs, the 8mm bots to 18-20ftlbs. But in this case, the items being fastened are NOT expected to move in relation to each other, so if one applies what almost invariably turns out to be much more tension on those bolts than is called for, nearly no harm will come of it…until the next guy tries to remove the fasteners.
But look at another example where the pieces ARE expected to move, like the camshaft journal caps. There is an expectation that once the cap is torqued in place, there WILL be so many thousandths of a millimeter between the caps and the journals, although the cap and the head won’t be moving in relation to each other, over tightening them is risking a reduction in the gap required for proper oil lubrication to take place.
One more example, the axle bolt, which basically holds a bunch of NON-MOVING parts together, a true statement as nothing that is in direct contact with the axle shaft actually rotates, spins, or slides ON the axle (with the notable exception on some bikes that use a shouldered axle bolt that eliminates the need for a spacer on one side.) The issue here is that the wheel bearings that are set in their place by the spacers that are held in place by the axle. Over tightening the axle is prone to applying excessive linear pressure on the bearings and subject to cause accelerated wear of the bearings…so I do my damndest to torque them to spec.
Spec? These specs, as mentioned before, go by the size of the fastener. 99% of the bikes that roll through my garage have a 19mm rear axle, regardless of the size tool needed, that torques to 72.5ftlbs. I don’t look it up, and I don’t bother with the last .5ftlbs. Likewise, im well aware that the bikes with driveshafts and final drive members, get torqued much higher, 85-95ftlbs, and the single sided chain drives with a center wheel nut…upwards of 170.
Okay, I don’t look up EVERY torque spec. But I see the same bikes over and over, and I do KNOW most of their torque specs. As far as the oddballs for which I don’t know the specs, well, if it’s a non-moving part, I’ll assume the spec is reasonably close to any other 6, 8, 10, or 12mm bolt and muscle memory will be confidently applied. And if I’m dealing with moving parts, rest assured, I’m looking up the torque specified to that particular bike.
Just because a mechanic isn’t using a torque wrench on every single fastener, doesn’t mean he or she isn’t a good mechanic.
Not only can I live with your explanations, I LOVE them . Personally, I wonder how many like you are out there. Life has jaded me and I kinda think there aren't too many. THAT'S what worries me the most handing my bike over to someone. And I learned many, many years ago that working at a dealership does NOT guarantee quality work. When I was young I thought "they MUST be good. They're working at a dealership." ................simply not the case.

Thanks for such an in-depth response !!!!
 

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Not only can I live with your explanations, I LOVE them . Personally, I wonder how many like you are out there. Life has jaded me and I kinda think there aren't too many. THAT'S what worries me the most handing my bike over to someone. And I learned many, many years ago that working at a dealership does NOT guarantee quality work. When I was young I thought "they MUST be good. They're working at a dealership." ................simply not the case.

Thanks for such an in-depth response !!!!
This response makes me want to throw this out there:
Be wary if you take your motorcycle to a dealership to have ANY device done on it. I recently had a client here in my garage who’d had a service done on his sport bike Friday prior to leaving on bike trip planned for Saturday…had the oil and filter changed, coolant flushed and filled, chain adjusted, and tires aired up.
Went to pack his bike the morning of his adventure to find a generous puddle of oil under the bike. Contacted the dealership when they opened but they weren’t gonna be able to do anything for him before Tuesday at the soonest.
Called me up to see if I’d have a look and find out what let all the oil out, and brought the bike over. It was plainly obvious the oil was coming from the oil drain plug…which I proceeded to turn in with my fingers. He was lucky the plug hadn’t come completely out!
Moral of the story: the dealership is after your money, not your satisfaction. One of the ways they score more money from you is by hiring any idiot that’ll do the work for $8/hr. The experienced techs do the work that requires knowledge, experience, and the understanding of what goes where, why this does that, and how it’s supposed to work. Those guys doing the oil changes, well, they were probably working at McDonald’s last week.
Talk to the service manager. Ask who will be working on your machine. Let them know you value your life and are not comfortable putting your safety in the hands of some person with no experience or schooling who probably shouldn’t be working on bikes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
This response makes me want to throw this out there:
Be wary if you take your motorcycle to a dealership to have ANY device done on it. I recently had a client here in my garage who’d had a service done on his sport bike Friday prior to leaving on bike trip planned for Saturday…had the oil and filter changed, coolant flushed and filled, chain adjusted, and tires aired up.
Went to pack his bike the morning of his adventure to find a generous puddle of oil under the bike. Contacted the dealership when they opened but they weren’t gonna be able to do anything for him before Tuesday at the soonest.
Called me up to see if I’d have a look and find out what let all the oil out, and brought the bike over. It was plainly obvious the oil was coming from the oil drain plug…which I proceeded to turn in with my fingers. He was lucky the plug hadn’t come completely out!
Moral of the story: the dealership is after your money, not your satisfaction. One of the ways they score more money from you is by hiring any idiot that’ll do the work for $8/hr. The experienced techs do the work that requires knowledge, experience, and the understanding of what goes where, why this does that, and how it’s supposed to work. Those guys doing the oil changes, well, they were probably working at McDonald’s last week.
Talk to the service manager. Ask who will be working on your machine. Let them know you value your life and are not comfortable putting your safety in the hands of some person with no experience or schooling who probably shouldn’t be working on bikes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Funny ( well, not actually 'funny' ) you mention the oil problem. When I bring my bike ANYWHERE, I always tell the owner/manager etc., DO NOT have a 17 year old work on my bike ALONE.
I certainly understand everybody has to learn along the way. BUT, DO NOT let that 17 year old work on my bike ALONE. Even if they mean well, they simply don't know anything ......yet.
 
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