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Goodyear tires and Nascar
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Talk about shooting yourself in the other foot. The only thing this will do is tick off about 75 million NASCAR fans. IF the union spend as much time trying to get an agreement with Goodyear as they so bashing Goodyear they all would be back to work. Now think about this if you owned a company where its workers bashed the company daily, would you really want them to come back to work for you? Or, would you rather hire new workers that WANTED to work with the company and not against it? As a company owner my other concern would be if you brought back those union workers with there bad attitudes there is a very high chance they would sabotage the product and equipment. My flame suit is on because I know the truth can hurt some times.
This just goes to show how the unions in this country are single handedly responsible for the loss of manufacturing jobs in america. They were useful in the early beginnings of the cuntury; however, with the onset of federal laws to protect workers, there is no longer a need for them, unless you want to make the case of rediculous wages for mundane jobs.
I am sorry, but being an individual from the south, I was raised to believe if you wanted more from life, move up the ladder. I think all jobs should have a cap as to the max you can make for a particular job. For example, I met a woman at the Ford plant in Sharonville, Ohio that had been there for 28 years. For the whole time she was a custodial worker responsible for keeping four restrooms clean. When she retired she was making $27.00 an hour. One would think $8.00 an hour would be max for a no brainer job like that.
It's no wonder that very plant is folding. It follows suit with Honda manufacturing. They pay the employees well but have caps by posiiton. They also let the employees know that if they want a union it is their right; however, they make it clear it that happens they will lock the doors and close the plant, also Honda's right.
I am sorry, but being an individual from the south, I was raised to believe if you wanted more from life, move up the ladder. I think all jobs should have a cap as to the max you can make for a particular job. For example, I met a woman at the Ford plant in Sharonville, Ohio that had been there for 28 years. For the whole time she was a custodial worker responsible for keeping four restrooms clean. When she retired she was making $27.00 an hour. One would think $8.00 an hour would be max for a no brainer job like that.
It's no wonder that very plant is folding. It follows suit with Honda manufacturing. They pay the employees well but have caps by posiiton. They also let the employees know that if they want a union it is their right; however, they make it clear it that happens they will lock the doors and close the plant, also Honda's right.
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17,123 Posts
Way more than two sides to this story; more like facets on a cut stone. At the heart of it is a very serious problem we Americans face in "the Global economy". We, as workers, expect, demand, deserve to participate in the American dream. We, as consumers, expect, demand, and believe we deserve to take advantage of third world labor and econimics to give us reduced costs. In the short run it worked out so well for us that we are hooked; but now that our own labor force, manufacturing infrastructure, and supply chain is decaying, we will realize that there is no free lunch -- the Third Workd is eating our lunch. GoodYear likely can not have a profitable production business here in US or Canada at this time or in the near future unless the workers can accept third world compensation and benefits; which they can not and will not -- yet will sooner or later have to -- or have no jobs.
prs
prs
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1,595 Posts
Its not the unions fault (ok well to an extent) but its the workers as well that are IN the unions. They want to get paid insane amounts of money for doing mundane jobs that require little experience or knowledge. I worked at a utilities for a summer one time a few years back and this was their daily schedule:
6:00 get to work and drink coffee, read the paper, fill out crossword puzzle, play scrimmage.
7:00 actually start working because its 7 and its ok to start making noise (neighborhood complained) start loading coal into the plant.
8:30 thats done...do small odds and ends for the remainder of the day. (ie..clean ash, shovel coal that fell otu of hopper...dont be surprised to see employees sleeping in the abandoned offices)
1:00 refill coal
2:00 Hit the showers.
3:30 go home.
For this they got paid (average union, in this case) around 30 an hour I believe, if they worked certain holidays, it was double time....other holidays it was double time and a half.....75 an hour.
My boss told me to go to the hardware store down the block and get a shovel and to "take 2 hours doing it, damn it"
Not all unions are like this...I myself am in a teachers union...but some are just seeming to be more and more corrupt with workers who only care about getting more money and will do whatever they can to get it.
6:00 get to work and drink coffee, read the paper, fill out crossword puzzle, play scrimmage.
7:00 actually start working because its 7 and its ok to start making noise (neighborhood complained) start loading coal into the plant.
8:30 thats done...do small odds and ends for the remainder of the day. (ie..clean ash, shovel coal that fell otu of hopper...dont be surprised to see employees sleeping in the abandoned offices)
1:00 refill coal
2:00 Hit the showers.
3:30 go home.
For this they got paid (average union, in this case) around 30 an hour I believe, if they worked certain holidays, it was double time....other holidays it was double time and a half.....75 an hour.
My boss told me to go to the hardware store down the block and get a shovel and to "take 2 hours doing it, damn it"
Not all unions are like this...I myself am in a teachers union...but some are just seeming to be more and more corrupt with workers who only care about getting more money and will do whatever they can to get it.
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5,844 Posts
Added to the comments above, we are now in a world economy which is obvious by the inter-involvement of original stand alone companies like GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes Benz, Volvo, Jaguar, etc.,etc.
Manufacturing is the yardstick of Gross National Product. It is not insurance, stocks and bonds, lawsuits, and other non product business. When all of our manufacturing is done by other countries, their wealth goes up and ours goes down.
The world's citizens are going to buy the best for the least. Forcing a company to pay $30 for a $15 job here when the company can get the work done for $15 there will have obvious results.
How many on this board are driving Toyotas when they used to drive Chevrolets?
Manufacturing is the yardstick of Gross National Product. It is not insurance, stocks and bonds, lawsuits, and other non product business. When all of our manufacturing is done by other countries, their wealth goes up and ours goes down.
The world's citizens are going to buy the best for the least. Forcing a company to pay $30 for a $15 job here when the company can get the work done for $15 there will have obvious results.
How many on this board are driving Toyotas when they used to drive Chevrolets?
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7,039 Posts
As a 27yr PROUD Union Worker, I appreciate the job and wages that I make. I'm not going to get in a war of words over Goodyears issue, but i don't want to give up my house for a HUT, my cars, truck, boat, 2 wings, atv, for a bicycle as a mode of transportation. One question to ask, Where would America be without the workforce of the past and present?
So does the woman who was making $27 per hour cleaning bathrooms, that does not make it right. Your responsibilities and salary may be well matched, hers is clearly not. Economics teory teaches that salary is a reflection on the contribution one makes to society, politicians excepted. The bigger the contribution i.e. doctors the larger the salary and vice versa. That is no longer the case and unions certainly have many examples of that. Why should a person cleaning 4 bathrooms receive as much money as a nurse? And who really pays for this? In the short term the consumer pays, in the long term even the union workers will pay as there will be less and less employers here. That is not to say that unions are the only cause or these inequities but they are one of the most obvious.
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7,039 Posts
Her pay may be in comparison to others within the buisness unit. I wonder how much her supervisor was makeing and how much the retirement package differs.
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6,473 Posts
I would just to like to ask one question... how will it benefit those workers
that joined the union... when that Goodyear plant closes permantely ??
will the union give them jobs or support them ?? but I bet the union bosses
will still have an income...
cosmic
that joined the union... when that Goodyear plant closes permantely ??
will the union give them jobs or support them ?? but I bet the union bosses
will still have an income...
cosmic
To base everything you say about this woman on this one statement says way more about you than it does about her.
I've been a member of the Operating Engineers since 1974. I believe Unions are still needed but I also believe they need to police some of their employees. Benifits are negotiated and usually if you get something you lose something. :roll:
Just my .02 cents that and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee.
I've been a member of the Operating Engineers since 1974. I believe Unions are still needed but I also believe they need to police some of their employees. Benifits are negotiated and usually if you get something you lose something. :roll:
Just my .02 cents that and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee.
I guess if all the sheepeople in the country make less and the corporations make more profit, just a few selected people get to enjoy the AMERICAN DREAM soon to be the MEXICAN DREAM I meen already the MEXICAN DREAM Luckily my wife works for the Goverment and I own my own Company were I can charge High Prices and pay some Sheepeople or illegal hardly nothing Who cares about everyone else right? I don't know but if your neighbor goes broke because he can't make a living don't you go broke eventually, I dont't know? Hire more Illegals keep the influx over the border coming Right? Heck their the only ones that want to work right? For low skilled underpaid no benifit jobs right? Well guess what thats all there will be and by the way are not all jobs, "unskilled " to the people with skills I mean the Corporations.
Hazle
Ps whats this thread doin on here anyway
Hazle
Ps whats this thread doin on here anyway
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7,039 Posts
And the corporate officials are still makeing 6 or 7 figures. This brings up a Thought, just a few years ago, Levi-strauss co. closed it's last facility i believe it was in texas and moved accross the border in mexico. Labor cost was their reason. Now, Has anyone noticed a decrease in cost to the said consumer that has benefited to their own economic growth? I'll bet that the corporate officials did via Compensation Packages!
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12,417 Posts
Not to repeat what has already been said!
Where in the hell is the employee loyalty?
When they have everything they want, the products they make are the best!
When they don't get everything they want, the companies products suck.
When this is all over, I believe that both the company and the employees will suffer for a long time to come.
"Careful, for what you ask for, you just might get it!"
Bulldog
Where in the hell is the employee loyalty?
When they have everything they want, the products they make are the best!
When they don't get everything they want, the companies products suck.
When this is all over, I believe that both the company and the employees will suffer for a long time to come.
"Careful, for what you ask for, you just might get it!"
Bulldog
What happened to the ZERO TOLERANCE FOR OFF TOPIC POST ???????
I quess it's o.k. if it's bashing Unions
Just remember wheather or not you want to admit it. you are making the income you are receiving and living to the standards you are, because of Unions.
Don't think the company is paying you that wage, or giving you those benifits just because they like you. They are doing it because, to keep good workers they must compete with the company that is Union.
So think twice before you Bash all of the Unions.
I quess it's o.k. if it's bashing Unions
Just remember wheather or not you want to admit it. you are making the income you are receiving and living to the standards you are, because of Unions.
Don't think the company is paying you that wage, or giving you those benifits just because they like you. They are doing it because, to keep good workers they must compete with the company that is Union.
So think twice before you Bash all of the Unions.
I believe it's all going to catch up to us in the long run. Who is going to support our way of life when the average wage is $7-$8-$9 an hour, what will our gov do for income to support the services they provide is gone, let alone the perks our representatives in gov get and the ceo's that receive 800-900 times what beginning workers are receiving. I believe in a days wages for a days work not paying someone to stand around doing nothing and at the same time not paying some ceo a ludicrous amount of compensation. Greed doesn't get far in the end. Lets face it we're all going to have to work together if this country is going to stay a world power and maintain a decent standard of living. Just my thoughts.
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If it was a union job and the regular employee was making 27 an hour to clean toilets...the super was probably making 40-50 an hour.Jchefboyardee said:
My dad worked in the mining supply business and he talked about how whenever he went into any of the mines, he saw plenty of employees...always on break or just standing around shooting the bull. Heck when I worked at the utilities, they were alway 'on break'.
Unions keep people from getting canned when they should.
I myself just keep a thought in my head that I heard when I was in training at (GASP!) Wal Mart last year. They made the truthful statement that Unions can't promise jack crap. They want you to pay them so they can TRY to get more money, for you. Unions can't promise a dime, all they do is stop people from working and crush the company in order to get what they want. Wal Mart for example has plenty of hardworking people who get paid for what they do, stock shelves, sell things...etc. Unions want to come in and give these employees (for 95% of the jobs there dont need a higher than 4th grade education) extremely high wages. For what? 10 an hour for stocking a shelf?! Im sorry, but if you put a made in the usa sticker on a car, or install a door panel on a car or monitor a computer that makes a tire, you shouldnt get a 40 dollar an hour pay with double time on holidays.
A lot richer? I just bought an SUV for about 23k. If I bought it from a company that had hard working employees who busted their ass to be proud of the end result instead of a bunch of union workers who were more worried about their next union meeting for a pay raise, Id be a lot thicker in the wallet.
That and the fact that most of the products that the USA uses are built overseas. The products the USA makes are either combined foreign components, extremely expensive truley american made products, or cheap crap that nobody needs. Americans would rather get their steel from China than from MN.
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5,844 Posts
In my 53 years of working since graduating from High School, I have never worked in a union environment. Every employee that worked in each of these companies had the right to work or leave as they saw fit. The employees that produced more got paid more.
The employees were loyal to the companies and the companies were also loyal to the employees. We had periods of "painting ladders" which was an airport term for keeping the employees busy when there was no work for them to do.
I am confused by those who think there is no limit to the money available to pay wages. If the public buys Chen Seng tires instead of Goodyear tires because of price, there is no tooth fairy that will provide funds at Goodyear with which to pay workers for not making tires. There are other pressures as well that the domestic Goodyear must face like products liability insurance costs, their own bank of laywers costs, the extra equipment to keep EPA and OSHA happy, etc.. I am not opposed to keeping EPA and OSHA happy, but other countries do not fight that battle and they definitely do not have a bank of lawyers and large products liability costs.
White collar workers did not get there by winning a lottery. They got there by being better at what they do than those who are not there.
In many cases, the people at the top started below the bottom. The adversity they suffered built the character they needed to be successful at what they do.
Companies that practiced the good ole boy system have a hard time competing with the the companies that have producing people in places of responsibility.
Relative to topics, most of us on this board need money to buy Goldwings and that money is earned where we work which is I think the principal thing discussed in this thread, whether it is tires for the bike or the factory that makes the bikes or the factories that pay the wages to those who buy the bikes, tires, etc.
I really do not think this thread is bashing unions, but rather trying to discuss the practicalness of overpaying workers that makes the company uncompetitive against companies not overpaying wages.
In the days when US citizens bought principally items made in the US, then overpaying for autos to satisfy high wages was relatively equal among the auto producers, and the farmers and other non union buyers had no choice but to overpay for autos, etc.. Now that we are in a world economy, we must all adjust our expectations to be in line with the rest of the world. If we want more, we must produce more. Otherwise, the fleas get fat and the dog dies.
In the days of bartering, everyone had their price in eggs or corn for digging 100 feet of ditch. The governments issuance of money has isolated us from knowing the true value of things.
The employees were loyal to the companies and the companies were also loyal to the employees. We had periods of "painting ladders" which was an airport term for keeping the employees busy when there was no work for them to do.
I am confused by those who think there is no limit to the money available to pay wages. If the public buys Chen Seng tires instead of Goodyear tires because of price, there is no tooth fairy that will provide funds at Goodyear with which to pay workers for not making tires. There are other pressures as well that the domestic Goodyear must face like products liability insurance costs, their own bank of laywers costs, the extra equipment to keep EPA and OSHA happy, etc.. I am not opposed to keeping EPA and OSHA happy, but other countries do not fight that battle and they definitely do not have a bank of lawyers and large products liability costs.
White collar workers did not get there by winning a lottery. They got there by being better at what they do than those who are not there.
In many cases, the people at the top started below the bottom. The adversity they suffered built the character they needed to be successful at what they do.
Companies that practiced the good ole boy system have a hard time competing with the the companies that have producing people in places of responsibility.
Relative to topics, most of us on this board need money to buy Goldwings and that money is earned where we work which is I think the principal thing discussed in this thread, whether it is tires for the bike or the factory that makes the bikes or the factories that pay the wages to those who buy the bikes, tires, etc.
I really do not think this thread is bashing unions, but rather trying to discuss the practicalness of overpaying workers that makes the company uncompetitive against companies not overpaying wages.
In the days when US citizens bought principally items made in the US, then overpaying for autos to satisfy high wages was relatively equal among the auto producers, and the farmers and other non union buyers had no choice but to overpay for autos, etc.. Now that we are in a world economy, we must all adjust our expectations to be in line with the rest of the world. If we want more, we must produce more. Otherwise, the fleas get fat and the dog dies.
In the days of bartering, everyone had their price in eggs or corn for digging 100 feet of ditch. The governments issuance of money has isolated us from knowing the true value of things.
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