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I suppose there are limits, but I think there is room for several improvements in power and torque, besides upping the speed limit of the bike.

I have 2 cars that we've had the ECUs reflashed ... one had the power increased nearly 100 hp and 85 torque. The other went up 80 hp. I think the GW's power could be improved to a degree as well.
I agree and more work by Guhl will probably have to wait for demand to catch up with development costs and his time to devote to the wing. His development of any more sophisticated DCT flashes are hobbled by the DCT not being able to be run on his dyno. This was also the case with his flashes on the Honda VFR 1200 DCT. All of the dyno work is being done with the manual trans bikes. >:)
 

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There had to be lots of dyno runs to get to the final tune. Does anyone have a link or seen the final dyno? I went to the "charts" section on Guhl's website but was unable to find an actual graph of the final tune. It would be great to compare stock dyno' to the retune. That will give us a good idea of what was done at specific rpm's. A "better" tune does not always mean more Hp/Tq at every or even the majority of a motor's RPM. The goals are generally better control, response, and should and does usually result in improved performance and "driveability" rather than being an all out gain in HP/TQ from idle to redline. With that smoother response it's completely reasonable to get some measurable amount of increased acceleration and power....but only within the mechanical limitation of the engine's displacement, valve-train, compression ratio, maximum air/fuel flow, etc. Without mechanical performance upgrades, only very modest HP/TQ gains can be expected from an already highly tuned modern engine. It's not like a Wing has a 130hp engine that is detuned to 97hp to provide maximum drivability and mileage. A couple of HP or lbs/ft of torque at the rear wheel would be a reasonable expectation.
 

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There had to be lots of dyno runs to get to the final tune. Does anyone have a link or seen the final dyno? I went to the "charts" section on Guhl's website but was unable to find an actual graph of the final tune. It would be great to compare stock dyno' to the retune. That will give us a good idea of what was done at specific rpm's. A "better" tune does not always mean more Hp/Tq at every or even the majority of a motor's RPM. The goals are generally better control, response, and should and does usually result in improved performance and "driveability" rather than being an all out gain in HP/TQ from idle to redline. With that smoother response it's completely reasonable to get some measurable amount of increased acceleration and power....but only within the mechanical limitation of the engine's displacement, valve-train, compression ratio, maximum air/fuel flow, etc. Without mechanical performance upgrades, only very modest HP/TQ gains can be expected from an already highly tuned modern engine. It's not like a Wing has a 130hp engine that is detuned to 97hp to provide maximum drivability and mileage. A couple of HP or lbs/ft of torque at the rear wheel would be a reasonable expectation.
Look at Fred's posts on this he posted Guhl's dyno curves.

Agree completely with your post. Honda did not apparently build this motor for peak power. The intake system has a smaller throttle body for better TQ. That being said I don't think Don Guhl has done any serious tuning on getting more HP & TQ yet. He worked with Fred on removing the top speed limiter, increasing the RPM limiter & changes to the sport and tour modes first. I would stay tuned as more of these new wings replace the older ones for further developments. >:)
 

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Speaking of increased HP and TQ; does the Guhl re-flash require the use of premium fuel?
 

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Speaking of increased HP and TQ; does the Guhl re-flash require the use of premium fuel?

No it does not, neither did the previous generation.
 

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As a Honda Automotive Technician for many years, this what I see. New model engine and transmissions that self destroy under warranty are investigated thoroughly. They want an ECU snap shot performed and the engine or transmission and sometimes the ECU if something does not look right to them, returned to them so the engineers can look for why the damage occurred. The ECU snap shot get taken at the moment of destruction. 15 seconds before and after. This for them check to how to duplicate the concern, so they can duplicate what happened so they can beef up the engine to prevent it from happening again.
When they originally built and test a new engine,bike and car, their ECU mapping is very much more aggressive then what they tame it down for the production line as they test till destruction. They do this to find the weak links that fail. So they figure a solution to help make it stronger that is still proprietary.
I believe that does not happen quickly. As most warranty work is performed quickly to get the vehicle back to the client as fast as possible. For motorcycle dealerships are the same. But there the difference in time, is the technician or parts person not ordering the right parts or complete list of parts needed. And the dealership telling corporate district manager that they have warranty work to be authorized.
The Honda Powersport District Manager is a pretty nice guy here as I work on his Ridgeline. He says that he has to investigate warranty claims from his dealers sometimes as the dealers are sometimes the ones trying to get over and not the Powersport clients. This mostly comes back on the Tech who does the Pre-Delivery Inspection and setup. But major claims also as some of his dealerships who sell multiple brands mix up what is and isn't covered.

And as I am not very literate in explaining, I do think I covered the salient points.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
There had to be lots of dyno runs to get to the final tune. Does anyone have a link or seen the final dyno? I went to the "charts" section on Guhl's website but was unable to find an actual graph of the final tune. It would be great to compare stock dyno' to the retune.

The goals of this reflash were never about making more power, but instead were focused on making the bike respond better in Tour and Sport modes and disabling the speed limit function. The mode remapping was done by altering the throttle mapping tables to make the Tour mode a bit more responsive and the Sport mode a bit less twitchy at lower RPMs. These are the tables that control the throttle by wire system, and tell the motor on the throttle body how far to open the throttle plates based on throttle position. The fuel and ignition timing tables were left basically stock.
 

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Dumb Questions:


1) Does updating the firmware affect the new re-flash?


2) Can the ECM be reflashed back to the original OEM tables? ... In case it proves not to work?


3) If we can figure out how to reflash the ECM why not the other modules on the bike so that we can change things like TPMS settings and so forth


Just curious...?
 

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Discussion Starter #69
Dumb Questions:


1) Does updating the firmware affect the new re-flash?


2) Can the ECM be reflashed back to the original OEM tables? ... In case it proves not to work?


3) If we can figure out how to reflash the ECM why not the other modules on the bike so that we can change things like TPMS settings and so forth


Just curious...?

1. No, updating the firmware for the Audio/Nav unit has no impact on the ECM.
2. Yes, it can be reflashed back to stock for free. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "it proves not to work" because it works just fine.
3. It's a matter of time and money and having the technical resources available to do the work.
 

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I do believe they did a lot off engine testing on a test bench. But I don't believe they do a lot of tests on the road with the motorcycle. I road the bike up to the Stelvio in Italy with 50 hairpins an de VRSIC pass in Slovenia and for me it's not possible in tour mode neither in sport mode. I had to do it in manual mode what is easy of course. This is not because of the engine tuning but because of the automatic gear tuning. This could be better. I did the same with the the CRF1000 (africa twin) in S2(sport 2) mode and this was perfect to me. What the Goldwing did was when out off the hairpin you open the throttle and the gearbox was selecting a gear down in each hairpin he did this what was very annoying and was sometimes brutal. Sport mode is to aggressive to go up. So I report this to the dealer but I don't think Honda will do something with this information. I told to the dealer that in case of any doubt about Honda's engineers I invite them to go with me and ride the bike up to the stelvio. This was in July and heard nothing about Honda. I told them to, that the difference between RAIN mode and ECO mode is almost nothing. It is better to have a X-mode between TOUR and SPORT. But no answer.
 

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... I road the bike up to the Stelvio in Italy with 50 hairpins ... and for me it's not possible in tour mode neither in sport mode. I had to do it in manual mode what is easy of course.
I beg to disagree. Stelvio in auto tour mode is no problem and and quite a fun in auto sport mode. You just need to trailbrake in the hairpins (double braking power compared with the old 2012 Goldwing) and manually downshift to 1st gear in sport mode in front of tight right turning hairpins.
 

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Tailbrake when you going in to the corner, when you comes out off the corner I go on the trotthle and then in automatic tour mode he's selecting a gear down. Most from 3 to 2 sometimes from 2 to 1.
 

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i guess it depends on how busy they are. It was pretty quick for me.

prs
 

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Yupp mine was delivered to Ghul today 2:47ish and it will be here tomorrow! Yeah, Baby! That's a great service!
 

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Any reviews on the flash?
Unfortunately I can’t get a motor out of my cup-de-sac. The bike will be back together by Wednesday. All I will need is a couple of warm days to clear out the white stuff.
I had the full flash done and hope that it will fix some of the few flaws the bike has as far as ride ability. Most of our winters we get to ride. But two weeks ago we had 20 inches of snow and it is not fully clear yet.
 

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Just after I posted I got a call. The ECM is on its way back to Colorado. 24 hours turn around is excellent.
I thought they called after receiving the ECU and asked what options you wanted installed or did you include written instructions with the ECU.
 

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I thought they called after receiving the ECU and asked what options you wanted installed or did you include written instructions with the ECU.
Yes Don does call and asks for what you want as well as getting your payment information and double checks your shipping address. They received mine on Friday and sent it out today Monday. That is excellent service.
 
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