[Toyo]

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Repo ... _Fuel_.htm

It is really gaining speed in the news. Rastoff, you might know something about this. I heard it explained on the radio the other day. It is pretty wild if you hear the full story. They say to think of a gallon of gas as a unit of energy. If you get fuel at 60 degrees you get maximum amount of energy out of the gallon of fuel you paid for. If the gas gets to 80 or 90 degrees in some states, you only get about 1/3 of what you get at 60 degrees. This is going to become pretty ugly quick.

 

[Lucky Phil]

Oil companies have claimed retrofitting the fuel pumps would be cost-prohibitive and affect the market price of fuel.

That's the first thought that hit my mind. Aren't underground temps always around 55*? (geothermal heating/cooling). Seems that if the tanker came and filled the underground tank, it would depend on the level of the tank how warm/cool the fuel would be after mixing. I can't see the temp changing that much; those tanker trucks don't travel really long distances, unless you're out in the deserted west somewhere.

Every month or so, the company where I work receives around 40,000 pounds of fatty acid from NJ (it sets up at 118*). We require it to be delivered at around 130*. Many of the truckers don't use 'in-transit' heat to keep it warm; sometimes it comes to us at 120*, and we can still unload it.

Who are the truckers going to blame when they fill their rig with a couple hundred gallons of fuel, then drive in hot areas? That couple hundred will heat up more quickly than a couple thousand. Will they then go to the manufacturer of the rig and demand that they put coolers on the fuel tanks?

They should've been yelling more about how a station owner can dump 10,000 gallons in the ground, then keep adjusting the price.

Just my opinion.

 

[Speed]

Fuel Temperature

I hadn't heard anything about that, I find it hard to believe.
If we only get 30% of the energy from a gal. of fuel
at elevated temperatures it seems that my mileage
here in Texas in the summer would drop to about
12 miles per gal. on the Wing. Also fuel tanks are
underground where the ground temperature remains
in the 55-60 degree range most of the year.
Are we going to refrigerate our fuel tanks to keep
the temperature down after it is in the vehicle?
Speed

 

[Fred H.]

Albert Einstein proved long ago that time is relative to your speed and that a watch traveling on a train would run slower than one sitting still.

And since I am further south on the earth than you guys up north, my rotational velocity from the spin of the planet is therefore faster than someones in Minnesota. This means I actually am spending more time at work than they are. I think I should be compensated for overtime. I'm gonna sue someone.

 

[PunkinDave]

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2006/Dec06/121506_NJ_Hot_Fuel_.htm

It is really gaining speed in the news. Rastoff, you might know something about this. I heard it explained on the radio the other day. It is pretty wild if you hear the full story. They say to think of a gallon of gas as a unit of energy. If you get fuel at 60 degrees you get maximum amount of energy out of the gallon of fuel you paid for. If the gas gets to 80 or 90 degrees in some states, you only get about 1/3 of what you get at 60 degrees. This is going to become pretty ugly quick.

This is about dispensing fuel at > 60f.. Fuel is sold by volume, not BTUs. The argument is based on dispensing LESS volume of fuel as the temp increases.. As said earlier, fuel is stored in below ground tanks and I really doubt that the dispensing temps vary that much..
Even if they did, the statement above would indicate that the fuel volume increases 66% between 60 and 90 deg???? I don't think so, every fuel tak filled in the evening would overflow every morning when the sun comes up.. Sounds like too many lawyers with too much time on thier hands

 

[Hawkmoon]

http://www.landlinemag.com/Special_Reports/2006/Dec06/121506_NJ_Hot_Fuel_.htm

It is really gaining speed in the news. Rastoff, you might know something about this. I heard it explained on the radio the other day. It is pretty wild if you hear the full story. They say to think of a gallon of gas as a unit of energy. If you get fuel at 60 degrees you get maximum amount of energy out of the gallon of fuel you paid for. If the gas gets to 80 or 90 degrees in some states, you only get about 1/3 of what you get at 60 degrees. This is going to become pretty ugly quick.

HUH? Does this mean we need to have our fuel tanks chilled? Great another option for big red to offer on the wing!!! :lol: :lol:

 

[jfink]

Compensation from 60 works both ways. Most of these suits emphasize the times when the fuel temperature is above 60 and the consumer is getting "ripped off".

Years ago the governing body (API) decided rather then adding the expense of temperature compensating equipment to filling station gas pumps, it commissioned a survey to measure ground and liquid temperatures. I believe what they found was that the average temperature across the country for fuel was 56 degrees (because it is buried, it doesn't vary as much with the ambient temperature).

The compensation for the difference in fuel volume between 56 and 60 degrees is something like 0.01%. Which means that the consumer is getting a 1/10000 more fuel if you believe the 56 degree average then if it were compensated to 60.

Under some circumstances the average temperature will change, like the time of day most consumers buy gasoline, the variability of temperature in different parts of the country, etc. factored into the equation this could change the mean purchase temperature.

If this can be proven and the court awards damages, the only ones that will see anything will be the lawyers. Consumers will not see any difference no matter what the outcome, except if filling stations are required to retrofit temperature compensation and guess who will pay for that.

One piece of advice though, fill your tank in the morning, you will get the benefit of lower temperature.

 

[shuckaduck]

I don't think so, every fuel tak filled in the evening would overflow every morning when the sun comes up.. Sounds like too many lawyers with too much time on thier hands

El correcto Temp=pressure

 

[AUSTENNN]

In the summers here, early AM there may be a nip of coolness in the air but the pump handle gets noticable warmer when you fuel up so I don't think the 55 degree estimate is that universal.

 

[Sid Moen]

Who is "Anynody"? :wink:

 

[Toyo]

It has been proven that in the states that are filing a suit that the temps coming out of the pumps are way above normal than usual. One of the problems that the store owners are doing is paying tax on the amount of fuel that is drawn from the refinery. Then the store collects the taxes from us. We are not getting that full gallon of gas, hence the stores are coming out ahead. This adds up to billions of dollars. The suit also alleges that the oil companies have and are aware of this problem and are not doing anything about it. Its us the consumers that are getting ripped off, why are yall so adament this is not happening. I dont feel a suit like this would have no merit if it were not true.

 

[PunkinDave]

None avmentioned that every state has an official Wieghts & Measures that checks a certifies ALL fuel dispensing pumps annually.. The check would be local at the pump so it would take into account the local temps in the volume measurment..

As Joe said and I remeber that to be an acurate number.. .01% volume change per 10degf...
1 gallon = 128oz
128 * .0001 = .0128oz
Can also be expressed as 0.0768 teaspoon..
Can also be expressed as $0.0003/gal (With fuel at $3.00/gal)
Yup, somebody's making a killing at the pump!!! And I purchase approx 100gals/month @ an average of $2.50/gal - $250/mo - * .0001 = $0.025/mo... I WANT A CLASS ACTION SUIT AND I WANT MY GRAM OF FLESH NOW!!!!

How many miles per teaspoon do you get??? :roll: :roll:
Hey Fred, because I'm further north than you, I'm getting out of work early today, wanna go for a ride?? :lol: :lol:

 

[Toyo]

The dept of agriculture sure is on top of things. They check the pumps once a year.

 

[teepee]

PunkinWing is right in that there are checks for accuracy in all pumps. The wright up in the rag says billions of dollars are being taken from consumers. It would be interesting to see a dollar figure per ave. tank of gas. With so many vehicles on the road are we only talking about pennies per tank full? The retrofit they want put on the pumps will probably cost many times that. Just like us consumers to cut off our noses to spite our faces!

Toyo, don't you run a gas station? Are they talking about involving small operations in this thing? And if they are, how can you be liable for any dollar damage when you have complied with all laws?

 

[PunkinDave]

.........are we only talking about pennies per tank full?

Per my calcs, it only costing me 2.5 cents/month for 100 gallons... Less than a a half a penny per 20gal tank assuming a 10 deg rise... I can't remember the last time I burned my hands from the fuel pump pumping this "hot" gasoline..

 

[moh58]

The consumer that is buying relatively small amounts of fuel is not going to see a much difference in the end.
The owners of the service stations that are paying for 10.000 gallons and up of fuel that has been warming and expanding in volume during transit does when the fuel cools in the underground tanks.

If shrinkage were a major problem, I would think that retailers would sell by weight rather than volume like the do for propane or CNG.

 

[Analysttom]

If you read the article in the link about 3/4 of the way down you will see Joan Claybrook quoted. That is all I need to know about this issue. She was the head safety nazi under Georgia's Disgrace (Mr. Peanut) and she is a radical leftist, anti-capitalist, anti-motorcyclist. whack job. If she was quoted as saying that the sun rose in the east and set in the west I would want independent verification.

 

[Wingntrucker]

gasoline?

I am one of those truckers that brings you the fuel to your local station. You are right as the temperature changes so do the gallons I haul. The 60 degree mark is the mark that is gone by. On the bill of ladings you have gross gallons and net gallons and they are only the same at 60 degrees outside. I don't know how they are charged to the companies but I can tell you that I'm pretty sure the stations are charged the gross gallons. When I haul 8,500 gallons in the winter time the numbers are adjusted to what they would be at 60 degrees. For instance, 8,500 net gallons in the winter time may be 8,520 gross gallons adjusted for temperature. In the summer time, that same 8,500 net gallons is 8,480 gross gallons.

I believe it is in the specific gravity? I've never really cared about any of the gallons, all I cared about was the weight. In the winter I have to haul less gallons due to the heavier gas due to the cold. In the summer time I can haul 8,800 gallons legally and in the winter I have to drop back to 8,500 gallons.

So I would guess that the customer (station) would be paying off the gross gallons.

Most of the tanks in the stations have systems that tell you the volume, if there is any water, and the temperature of the product in the ground.

I'll have to look at one of my bill of ladings now to see what exactly it says...

If some of this doesn't make sense, I'm typing this at 5 AM on a Sunday and I just woke up. I'll re-read it later to see if it makes sense to me and edit it if I have to, I may have my nets and grosses mixed up but the magic number is 60 degrees