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Discussion Starter #1
I got to talking with someone and Transmissions became the subject (specifically the GL1800's and what it should be). I was being told about a Constant Mesh Transmission aka Syncromesh. I was basically able to fallow along with the concept. But, I had to do a quick search to get something to look at. Here are a few clips I found. After seeing the GL1800 tranny up close and personal.... It point blank sucks. The gear boxes below are no larger than what the Wing has. I think one of the other clips I found was a Suzuki bike of some flavor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8YMh8TQ1gg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzDBemFFxM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcFQZ8NiF4o&feature=related

Wing tranny: the dogs have a basic problem banging and getting in each others way as you try to shift (why you have a "double-click" or "triple-click" shift). In the Constant Mesh, the synchro rings line up the gear teeth with non-load friction teeth and lets the gears engage clean. The computer demo demonstrates that action (near the end). No dogs here to undercut.... or to take off the flat tops. I think it would take about 100,000 miles of NEVER touching the clutch between gears to kill one of these......(as long as you float the load during a shift, sometimes called speed shifting but no clutch at all and no pre-load the shifter). I used to speed shift my KZ440 Kawi all the time without any kind of bang-clunk that every Honda I have ever had does with the clutch. I never speed shift a Honda.


If I absolutely had to have he dog design, I would undercut them as well as angle the tops. (I don't think anyone is doing this alteration at all). I mention this cut to help dogs hitting head on to nudge off to a consistent side rather than bang tops again. The "drive" edge is full height while the open edge is just a touch shorter putting an angle on the top of the dog. This angle encourages pushing past so the dogs will engage on the "drive" edge. Undercutting angles the "drive" edge into each other and power transfer through the dogs keeps them locked together.
 

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trannies

You might talk to GoldWingrGreg. IIRC, he may have info.
 

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I got to talking with someone and Transmissions became the subject (specifically the GL1800's and what it should be). I was being told about a Constant Mesh Transmission aka Syncromesh. I was basically able to fallow along with the concept. But, I had to do a quick search to get something to look at. Here are a few clips I found. After seeing the GL1800 tranny up close and personal.... It point blank sucks. The gear boxes below are no larger than what the Wing has. I think one of the other clips I found was a Suzuki bike of some flavor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8YMh8TQ1gg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTzDBemFFxM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcFQZ8NiF4o&feature=related

Wing tranny: the dogs have a basic problem banging and getting in each others way as you try to shift (why you have a "double-click" or "triple-click" shift). In the Constant Mesh, the synchro rings line up the gear teeth with non-load friction teeth and lets the gears engage clean. The computer demo demonstrates that action (near the end). No dogs here to undercut.... or to take off the flat tops. I think it would take about 100,000 miles of NEVER touching the clutch between gears to kill one of these......(as long as you float the load during a shift, sometimes called speed shifting but no clutch at all and no pre-load the shifter). I used to speed shift my KZ440 Kawi all the time without any kind of bang-clunk that every Honda I have ever had does with the clutch. I never speed shift a Honda.


If I absolutely had to have he dog design, I would undercut them as well as angle the tops. (I don't think anyone is doing this alteration at all). I mention this cut to help dogs hitting head on to nudge off to a consistent side rather than bang tops again. The "drive" edge is full height while the open edge is just a touch shorter putting an angle on the top of the dog. This angle encourages pushing past so the dogs will engage on the "drive" edge. Undercutting angles the "drive" edge into each other and power transfer through the dogs keeps them locked together.

Just had mine rebuilt, gears are undercut and it shifts like a dream.

search this forum and you will find more info. Greg from GoldwingGreg rebuilt mine and he outsources the gears to a machine shop to get them undercut.

PM me for more information.
 

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Better yet, since the bikes transmission sucks so bad, why not get rid of it get a different bike? :roll: :popcorn:
 

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My biggest complaint about Honda's in general is the transmission.

I have owned Suzuki's since I began riding. Loved the transmissions. I can shift without the clutch up and down, there is no huge clunk into 1st gear, and they shift so so smooth.

Still like the wing though.
 

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If I absolutely had to have he dog design, I would undercut them as well as angle the tops. (I don't think anyone is doing this alteration at all). I mention this cut to help dogs hitting head on to nudge off to a consistent side rather than bang tops again. The "drive" edge is full height while the open edge is just a touch shorter putting an angle on the top of the dog. This angle encourages pushing past so the dogs will engage on the "drive" edge. Undercutting angles the "drive" edge into each other and power transfer through the dogs keeps them locked together.
Undercutting the gears has been around for a while.some street bikes already come with undercut gears,But mainly you'll find undercut gears in race bikes.

The issue seems to be with the 1800 gears are the dogs and the way they are cast.They tend to slip of of each other rather easily compared to other gear boxes of similar design.

While it would be great to video one in action to determine exactly what is going on while in motion,I doubt anyone has or will ever do such a test to see what design changes could be made to rid the 1800 gear box (if you will) or to stop this action of gears not staying where you shift them in the very few units built.

No dealer will take on the liability of allowing another shop to alter the gears that they have to warranty if something fails later on.


Personally I believe that Undercutting gears is kin to replacing the steering stem bearings.It's band-aid solution because the cause isn't known.Yet like the bearings,undercutting locks the gears together rather then let them slip off of each other in some cases.

If you are out of warranty and don't wan't to risk having your transmission do a repeat of 5th dropping to 4th.(Ghost-shifting) Then I suggest you have 2-5th gears undercut while it's apart.
The draw back is it will take a Pro shop 4-6 additional weeks to fit the gears into their schedule because of how busy they are with race bikes during the season.
So be prepared to be without your bike for at least 8-11 weeks total down time in some cases.
I wouldn't want just anyone undercutting my gears after all that work/expense.:22yikes:

Undercutting can best be described here from this pro shop that builds race bike transmissions. http://www.aperaceparts.com/transmissions.html
 

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My biggest complaint about Honda's in general is the transmission.

I have owned Suzuki's since I began riding. Loved the transmissions. I can shift without the clutch up and down, there is no huge clunk into 1st gear, and they shift so so smooth.

Still like the wing though.
I can do the same on the wing it shifts perfectly but you have to have the right rpms, the transmission on these bikes are still good tranny's but with anything human controlled you find errors in assembly and quality control. You just sometimes get bad ones, if you did a ratio of bikes with problems and bikes without, the number with would be miniscule...
 

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Looking at the OP, he seems to be discussing dogs versus synchronizers. Constant mesh and synchromesh are not the same thing.

All modern transmissions are constant mesh, the gears are always engaged to each other. These are the two main different ways of engaging gears to the transmission shaft. Dogs and synchronizers. I don't know of a motorcycle or a purpose built race car that uses synchronizers. And few street cars use anything other than synchronizers.

The reason is that dogs are fundamentally stronger and shift faster, with less hand/foot movement required. They also take up less space, which is critical on bikes. If you've got a lot of room, don't mind a long shift throw, and have to deal with customers who bought a manual only to save gas, and want the easiest operation even if it's slow, synchronizers are the obvious choice. If you want the ability for a skilled operator to shift without the clutch, dogs are the way to go.

If anyone built a motorcycle with synchronizers, I'd guarantee that people would be all over it for the huge and lazy shifting transmission, and the long shift throw. It would not sell.

There are some new high tech options. Computer controlled dog transmissions and dual clutch transmissions remove human error, the main reason dogs break. But, of course, they cost more money, require technician training, ...
 

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Slightly off topic, but... As mentioned earlier, RPM is the key to smooth shifting. On mine, I cannot just allow the throttle to completely unwind or it will chatter while up-shifting. There is a sweet spot that allows smooth as silk shifting. It varies with the rpm at which I shift.

I shift by sound and feel so don't know the actual numbers but it is sort of like: drop rpms from 4000 to 2500 - not all the way down to 750.

Downshifting comes naturally from day one. Try this: Keep the throttle position exactly where it is when moving, pull clutch, shift down, release clutch lever (All the while maintaining the preexisting throttle position). Then reduce your speed, maintain a constant speed and repeat.
 

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I shift by sound and feel so don't know the actual numbers but it is sort of like: drop rpms from 4000 to 2500 - not all the way down to 750.
I fully agree. I never let the bike fully wind down when shifting, however, I don't think my bike's (or my previous 2005) ever saw 4K RPM. I can't remember ever taking it above 3,500...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
"Up close and personal..."

Here is what I meant by "up close and personal" with a GL1800 gearbox...... I repaired one. 3 gears, 1 shift drum assembly, 3 shift forks (one just because, the other two were indeed bent 1/8" out), and fork slider (just because, it was the lowest priced part). Before I put the case back together, I held things in place enough to spin the input shaft and run through the gears several times. I got to see with my eye's exactly what I feel in the shift lever. I saw dogs hit the tops of each other for a "double-click" shift. The shift lever is stopped dead in rotation before the shift is actually complete because of dogs hitting the tops. RPM will not make any difference in the occurrence of dog head on clash. That is pure bad luck in timing. If I am too perfect with RPM and still get dog clash, it requires partially letting out the clutch while keeping "shift pressure" of the shifter before it actually goes in. Leaving it at first stop point leaves it between gears and no power to the wheel. There is not supposed to be a neutral between 2 and 3, or 3 and 4, or 4 and 5; but I have been there and only on a Honda. That condition has occurred more than once, even with less than 20 miles on the ODO (twenty point zero miles, not 2 thousand nor 20 thousand).



Now, if I think Honda trannies suck, why do I have a Wing? If there are 100 things about something that is exactly what you want in a ride and 10 things in it that are absolute crap when the next closest item in existence only has 50 things you want; the 10 crap items are not that bad. Even better if you can fix some of them. I have fixed several of the "crap" items on mine. I am down to the crap transmission and the "designed in a vacuum" cooling system.
 
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Constant Mesh Transmission aka Syncromesh
There is a difference between constant mesh and syncomesh. All MC transmissions are constant mesh. The GL tranny is a constant mesh transmission and all the gears move all the time and are always connected at least on the tooth side. The dog and pocket concept is common to all motorcycle transmissions and non of them are syncromesh. To have synco involves sycro gears which cause the gears to sync speeds just before engagement. Only autos and trucks have synchromesh transmissions.

The GL tranny is no better or worse than all other MC transmissions - they are all made by the same third party vendors.

As ususal one or two people have a problem and all of a sudden the GL transmissions are junk.
Keep in mind 99.9% never have any transmission problems. That is the fact that is most important.
 

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Honda MC Trans

Just a comment on my exerience with Honda MC Transmissions in general-

I have had a couple of SOHC 750s, a GL1100, a CX500-Turbo, an ST1100 and now the GL1800. The only realy good shifting trasmissions were the 750s. The GL1100, Turbo and ST1100 were particularly bad about the 1st to 2nd gear change. If you were not very firm with your shift it could pop out of 2nd under hard acceleration. Bumped the Turbo and the ST1100 off the rev limiter a few times.

The GL1800 seems similar but 4th to 5th is where you must take care. Honda does alot of things realy well but their transmissions have never been in the top tier.

I want a Goldwing with the DCT VFR1200!

Larry
 

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I don't need to fully understand how a transmission works to know that the GL's transmission is one of worst feeling transmissions I've ever rode on. That being said, the bike makes up for the crappy transmission in many many other ways.

Hands down best transmission I've ever shifted was the Triumph 1050's transmission in a Tiger. That thing was like butter.
 
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