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Discussion Starter #1
Okay here WAS my rig...





After running over a truck retread, long story short... she needs a new frame.

I am thinking very hard about changing the cooler position to the frame on the back and also putting spare wing tire with it... lengthening the tongue and mounting the CRF50 longthwide on the tongue face towards the back of the bike.

Here is the Mini bike:



If I do not have the mini with me then the cooler goes back to the tongue like normal and the platform can be removed.

Mini is 105 lbs. Spare tire is 33 lbs. Cooler is around 50 and change when full.

Does anybody see an issue with my design before it gets built?
 

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I joined this site a few weeks back (having way to much fun BTW) just for advice with my new trailer. Was hoping to run into someone who has one like I bought. No luck this far.

Anyway, I have done some interesting experinents with it since, getting ready for a round about next month.

My last set of nonscientific runs involved six 40lb bags of potting soil and some ratchet straps. I overloaded the cooler rack, overloaded the rear of the trailer bed etc and all things being equal from my "feel" I think a guy can have a good forty pounds but not quite eighty on the front tongue as long as everything else is loaded evenly. This was with the bike loaded to the gills including a passenger t-bag.

And in the extreme far rear when I had four or more bags 160lbs and nothing else aboard I could really "sense" that "not good" feeling as well.

In my humble opinion I think it is all about tongue weight and loading as to not put too much lift on the coupler either. Other than that I think a guy could get pretty radical.

In fact I think with trailer brakes the Wing could pull safely an easy 800 to 1200 pounds if loaded properly. This is only a good guess but I do not think any of the trailers out there are designed for anything close to the "limits" of sane safety.

JUST MY OPINION but if you are gonna design or tweek it, I say wire in trailer breaks and drums and get crazy and build her for the load.

I think I am gonna do some playing around this winter with a set up that will pull my 919, dog and some camping gear. I am thinking the bikers version of a long lowboy with wide axle incorporating two outside the bunk bins over the axle. Maybe even a double axle set up.

I say go for it if you can keep the primary forces within reason, have some assistance slowing her down and not too crazy with length or width. I think the Wing can pull all day long.

My only real "nervous spooky" could be a fatal fail without feeling any bad vibes beforehand "feelings" is the Wings frame and that connondrum is beyond my pay grade, but until I sniff out info to the contrary I am in the go for it trailering camp.

FYI: I have had a few epic fails in my time but most of them all involved heavy machinery (which I do not operate for a living) and crazy but theoretically possible rigging. No one ever got hurt but let's just say some "things" got real broken. All my property by the way. So again this is all JUST MY OPINION. If I do build my bikers lowboy she will be tested out around town many times and then the Wing will get naked for her frame check out.
 

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I would think to much weight aft of the axel and not enough tongue weight if I understand what you are trying to do. Ask Tom Finch :confused:
 

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I was a bit long winded there and very off point to the project at hand.

I agree with the above post BTW I too think you might have too much off the back end as it is now if my guess is correct and you load the mini back there now.

But I like the new concept with longer tongue. I would think even if you can only get 1/4 of the mini bike weight back far enough should be no worries.

Go for it.
 

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With just a little more design and work, I would build a new trailer, one designed specifically to carry the bike. Perhaps the bike rail in the middle with a couple of storage compartments on each side and a smaller cooler on the tongue.

Or, do what I did in the late eighties. My Venture Royale followed by a 1-rail trailer with my Trials bike followed by a cargo trailer similiar to yours. Basically, your bike pulling 2 trailers in tandem.

On the dirt bike trailer I had the word, "Piggybike". :lol:

I had no issues and it pulled fine. Were I to do it again today though, I would have brakes on one or both of the trailers.

Obviously, I keep a good distance between myself and the vehicle in front.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
As it was... bike on back, cooler filled with normal stuff and water to max, ct between cooler and front of trailer body and with 65 lbs tongue weight she would sway at 50 mph so if my math is close the new design should be fine.
 

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I like the new concept DJ you could even chop out a bit with your cargo carrier and mod in a fiberglass and aluminum wheel bed for the real tire on the mini bike. And if that is a harbor freight set up why not get crazy and go duel axel and put breaks on the new axel.

Trailsman, Did that tandem set up get squirrelly on you. Sounds pretty neat would love to see a photo of that to put even more “dangerous” ideas in my head. Had not even thought of the tandem action.

And a clarification on my above long winded thinking out loud comment. The 800-1200lbs would include the weight of the trailer. Might be on the high side but who knows until you try it out.? :22yikes: :thumbup:
 

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Looks very cool! Will the Rear Platform always be on when the Mini is mounted and vice versa? That would certainly allow you to balance the load.
 

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So correct me if I am wrong but loaded for a weekend in the mountains or coast to coast the front tire of the mini bike is going to sit just about where that line is aft of your “swivel hitch” arrow and that arc on the front cooler rack platform is the rear wheel?

And the removable rear rack is going to be full of 50lbs of perishables? And the spare tire etc?

Looks like you have this drawn to scale correct?

Draw in the axel or is it dead center on the cargo compartment?

How much did you stretch the tongue from its current length?

Have any "airborne plans" or is your intention to stop looking in the mirrors at BMW's?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Remember, an actual picture of what the rig used to be is post number 1 in this thread!


Looks very cool! Will the Rear Platform always be on when the Mini is mounted and vice versa? That would certainly allow you to balance the load.
YES - and if no mini, platform comes off and cooler goes where it "should".

That is the whole idea.

With the cooler and spare tire in front of the body and the mini on the platform, while I did have 65lbs tongue weight I had a sway which would prevent me from going past 54 mph, comfort-wise.

I am wondering if my issue with the sway was due to frame flex? Stronger, thicker gauge frame tubing... should stop sway yes?

The big question here--- Since we are doing a new frame anyway, and I know it's going to be thicker walled material... do I just stick with original design and stronger frame or stronger frame and redesign?
 

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I do not know.

With the original as it “was” Had you played around with some bags of sand or what not like I described up there in my long winded blah, blah…before your retread “gator” thrashing? If not just by necessity or opps loaded it heavy or light one way or another?

I take it no way, no how she is going to roll as is currently for some trials and error?

If you could piece her together you could play around a bit and even get some square an 1/8 over stock and mess around with the tongue length too under different loads.

Your 54 MPH sway is spooky and might be a function of wheel base width and or that and/or too much weight in the rear giving the coupler too much freedom “up” so she just feels free to dance around or could be too much “push” down tongue weight forcing too much concentration of the load on a single pivot point.

I need to think on this.
 

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I am wrong again! Go figure..

WHEN IN DOUBT CALL SOMEONE WHO IS A BIT WISER THAN YOU...

I made a few phone calls to some of my “owl” friends and SWAY is definitely not a “too much tongue weight” problem.

It could be a “too much rear weight” problem. When she is uncoupled, if she goes right now on her ass this may well be the problem if she needs a finger or too to put her on her ass same deal but over all if she wants to sit level no worries here with SWAY.

SWAY IS MOST PROBABLY A SUSPENSION PROBLEM OR SIGNIFICANT OVER LOADING ONE SIDE OR ANOTHER.

But most likely a suspension problem.

It is also possible that it is a function on “frame flex” like you mentioned but not likely.

Me thinks you need to give tht poor girl a bit more elbow room. Beef up the suspension and have at it.
 

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AND just to cover the "DUH?" factor both them trailer tires were running the same tire pressure and tires correct?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
With the original as it “was” Had you played around with some bags of sand or what not like I described up there in my long winded blah, blah…before your retread “gator” thrashing? If not just by necessity or opps loaded it heavy or light one way or another?
I have around 150,000 miles on that trailer. I think I have an idea how she is going to perform PRIOR to the 'incident' and having to build a new frame.
I take it no way, no how she is going to roll as is currently for some trials and error?
I am not sure I fully understand your statement / question. If you are questioning the change to the center of gravity... that is the primary reason for putting her tires right on the tongue frame. That is the lowest point I can get her.

As I stated, I have stupid miles on the trailer and I only had ONE issue with the trailer rolling over. Last year we put mom's power wheelchair on the top of the cargo box, thus putting an additional 200 lbs and skewing the center of gravity and creating a top heavy load. I knew this but we did not have much of a choice at the time and I figured I would just take it easy. Long story short, the local LEO had his cruiser blocking the road and we had to turn around. No big deal, but about 1/2 way through I had to give her a notch more power and when I did it acted like a slingshot to the top heavy trailer. No big deal but it did roll.

The is a MUCH lighter load and is MUCH lower so I have minimal concerns of creating a scenario where the mini is putting the trailer at risk of rolling. (Only 104 lb machine and will be counter weighted by gear on the platform.)
If you could piece her together you could play around a bit and even get some square an 1/8 over stock and mess around with the tongue length too under different loads.
That is the problem... I do not have much time. I am not an engineer by trade, but I do know a couple of things about a couple of things. That is the exact reason I threw the plan up here so yous guys could rip it apart six ways from sunday. I want the negative comments. You may think of something I did not.
Your 54 MPH sway is spooky and might be a function of wheel base width and or that and/or too much weight in the rear giving the coupler too much freedom “up” so she just feels free to dance around or could be too much “push” down tongue weight forcing too much concentration of the load on a single pivot point.
Keep in mind, we had 65 lbs at the end of the tongue, measured at the swivel hitch prior to encountering the sway. BTW - the gear inside the box was set to increase the tongue weight as much as possible. That gear will be relocated to adjust for change in exterior load.

I personally think the frame was flexing. I have had that trailer loaded down much more than that, but the platform acts as a lever as you know requiring less input resulting in a larger output.

Suspension had less than 5,000 miles on it since it was replaced with brand new everything so I doubt suspension but not ruled out.


If I did not PM you my number --

904-705-8975 cell
094-246-3305 hm
 

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Stopped by my buddies house after dinner and he is still “perplexed” with the sway issue and still in the camp of a suspension issue but like you mentioned those suckers are damn near new.

So it could very well be with the frame flex or perhaps even bent with the original mini bike pull and the original material just not being strong enough for what was going on.

So make sure too design in the option of progressively being able to stiffen the whole works up if need be with the new frame plan which will most likely not be needed as it sounds like the plan is for heavier material.
Weld it up bolt in the half torsion and before you go any further pull it just to make sure one of those torsions is not funky.

If it does not want to track at all or wants to track favoring to one side. Something is funky with one of the torsions.

If not carry on. All your weight concepts seem like they should be fine.

He also mentioned making sure the half torsions you have now are rated for what you are gong to put on it but I am guessing you got that covered.

But again here he mentioned suspension and if those torsions are being asked to do too much or maxed out then no suspension and definitely sway would result.

Sorry DJ no magic bullet. So in a nut shell from up here the “advice” for what it is worth is go with the plan but make sure you leave room to “improve” it without having to disregard the material you are putting into it.

But I think that was your plan all along. So no new ideas from up here.
 

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DJ,

Not saying a better mind...but definitely different.

I saw your drawing yesterday and the key component missing from your sketch is the axle location. Without question, your total over-all weight will be significant. I don't think the total weight is that big of an issue but depends on where that weight is. If you had a comparable chunk of iron (comparable to the weight of your goodies) and it was low and near the axle, no issue. However, with the added weight stretched out so far from the axle, I think you are going to have to look at your different scenarios (ie, bike on/cooler in rear, bike off/cooler in front, etc.) but if you don't consider the axle location, you don't know how to balance. At first glance of the pics, it appears to have alot a length behind the axle for a payload that could vary greatly in weight (empty cooler, full cooler, sloshing water, etc.).

You mentioned you had a sway above 55 mph before...that scares the he11 out of me and I'm not scared of anything. IMO, you were already having issues before considering adding the "fiddy". If it is swaying (or has tendencies to sway) on dry road, you are on the ragged-edge on a wet road. A light front-end will hydroplane much easier than one properly loaded. You will, also, need to consider what is happening when you hit a dip or bump as you will have pitch inertia. During a bouncing situation, your hitch load may go from greatly over-loaded to under-loaded until things settle down. Your suspension will need to be geared to handle the max anticipated weight, as well. Many look at the hitch load and compare it to the weight of a passenger. This is a false sense of security as the passenger weight is +/- over the axle and the hitch weight is greatly exaggerated due to the mechanical advantage being located so far back from the pivot point (axle) and will be worse for the 2012 riders. The more weight you have on the hitch, the less weight on the front tire...which no bike likes. I coach passengers when riding 2-up, to lean forward and stay off the backrest when traversing gravel parking lots etc. as the front wheel does not track well if the weight is shifted to the rear...makes a dramatic difference. If your are using 15% of total weight on the hitch, the spare and fiddy is going to add another 21 lbs. to the hitch...on level, smooth road. Adding length to the tongue will help in that respect but you may only be able to park at truck stops when you get through due to the over-all length of the bike/trailer combo.

If I were compelled to haul the fiddy and were incorporating it with your existing style trailer, I don't know that I wouldn't look at mounting it perpendicular to the tongue. For me, I would rather deal with the extra width than the weight distribution issues.

This picture is deceiving as the perspective makes the bike appear much wider than the trailer...it is wider but not as much as it appears in the photo.




I don't know anything about your trailer construction but if it were mine, I'd be looking for something besides just old structural steel. I would be looking at something like 4130 (aircraft tubing) and tig weld it. You just beef up the existing design and you will be adding much more weight for little strenth improvement and the original design most likely did not consider bending moments you will experience with weight so far out from the axle. I would also not count on any structural strength provided by the cargo body or you'll be setting yourself up for a disappointment. You need to look at it from a stand point of if the trailer were fully loaded, you picked it straight up and then, dropped it. The further the weight is on either side of the axle, the greater the chance for a structural problem. If the suspension is bottomed out, the inertia of the weight will still be there with nothing to absorb it...things will flex, bend or break. If it were the chunk of iron right over the axle, it would be little problem. Envision the drop test with no cargo body on the frame but the heavy components on-board.

As bad as I hate to say this, I think you would be ahead to build a trailer designed around your specific needs (or wants) rather than trying to doctor up what you have. Camper trailers are on the heavy side but the weight is centrally located around the axle and the frame is designed for it.

Frankly I'm surprised to hear about you pulling the swaying trailer and the trailer loaded with a 200 lb. electric chair on top. Sounds like you are about as big a maniac as I. I may have hauled the 200 lb. chair up top in a pinch but I probably wouldn't have told anyone about it!

I would hate for you to rig up the trailer to haul everything and something bad happen to you. Who could we count on to keep everybody straight here then? I don't want to be a wet blanket but realistically, I think you will be asking too much out of the trailer using your layout arrangement. You can balance weight fore & aft, but balance isn't the only animal you are dealing with here.

Just my opinion and worth no more than what you paid for it. Good luck with your project.

Z
 

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In an email post update from Zachybilly1 from this morning, I think his axel placement point.t is a good one regardless what way you mount the mini.

When you weld up the new frame why not leave yourself the option of being able to move them half torsin axels a few feet each way.

I don't now why his post is not up but I bet you got that email update to thread too.
 
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