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Discussion Starter #1
I have seen that MANY of you are far more experienced riders ant I. i am very glad to see there are not so many accidents posted as I might expect. BUT...

I would like to make a PLUG for EVERYONE taking a Motorcycle Safety Foundation riders course. Being a graduate of not the Basic Rider Course (BRC) and the Experienced Rider Courses (ERC), I can tell you the training and proactive in invaluable.

So no matter how you do it, at your local community college, ride club, of commercial course provider. I highly recommend the training.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

Cheers and safe riding.
 

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HUH.................:eek:
Dave, the hobo, Cassidy
Sgt E-5, 1965-1968 7th SFG(ABN)
Ft. Bragg,N.C.
MSF Instructor,NVCC, 1980-1983
 

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Dangerous Old Lady Biker
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I love to take ERC's and aim the Wing directly at the instructor during one of the drills...really freaks them out!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

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Commander, do you have any pull in getting the Army to standardize on the same requirements for motorcyclists on all Posts?

I have seen that MANY of you are far more experienced riders ant I. i am very glad to see there are not so many accidents posted as I might expect. BUT...

I would like to make a PLUG for EVERYONE taking a Motorcycle Safety Foundation riders course. Being a graduate of not the Basic Rider Course (BRC) and the Experienced Rider Courses (ERC), I can tell you the training and proactive in invaluable.

So no matter how you do it, at your local community college, ride club, of commercial course provider. I highly recommend the training.

http://www.msf-usa.org/

Cheers and safe riding.
 

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i have plans to take the course again this summer
have taken it a few times befor and have to say it is a very good course to brush up on skills

actually one of the instructors contacted me to sign up, i don't know if thats good or bad :eek:4:

last summer the instructor cut a deer in half with his ST1300 on the way to work and walked away, the bike was back in riding condition in a few weeks
 

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Cycledude, after teaching the MSF courses and taking them as well (many, many years ago), I decided to go take the ERC this summer. Man, it kicked my a$$. I was exhausted when it was over. Goes to show that I don't practice as much as I should. Wonder who else is in that boat?
 

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For Even More...

While I agree 200% with taking the ERC, there is more; check out the books by David Hough - Proficient Motorcycling, More Proficient Motorcycling and Street Strategies.

There is simply not enough time in the ERC to learn the classroom part, and now MSF has altered the ERC and eliminated the classroom. Your loss, as the old ERC included the video and module on traction control, which was one of the best videos I've ever seen.

To avoid having teaching problems, MSF has distilled the training down to a 'do it yourself' approach for the beginner's course and some quick talking points in the ERC. Face it - if you could teach yourself those things, you would not need the course except for the range exercises. That's unfortunate.

The state of Idaho ignored MSF and still teaches the older MRC:RSS, which is a great approach AS LONG AS you have people who know how to teach. The new approach of letting the students look up answers to questions, bypassing a dialog between an instructor and the class, has shortchanged the student.

Do yourself a favor and at a minimum get Proficient Motorcycling. Written by Dave Hough, one of the first MSF trainers, it is full of the situations that are not covered in the courses.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Department of Defense Motorcycle Requirements

Commander, do you have any pull in getting the Army to standardize on the same requirements for motorcyclists on all Posts?
Actually, for the most part, they are. The Army standard is an MSF course. BRC MUST be complete to ride on post. You cannot even resister for the post decals without showing your MSF BRC card. Keep in mind, if you do not have a DOD decal, you will be searched and have to show your license, registration and MSF card to drive on post as well as meet the requirements below.

NOW... gear on federal installations will always be the "no skin below chin", never saw less. Many also require us to wear a reflective device like a reflective belt or hi visibility vest. There is no latitude.. see the below document.

Brace yourself... here is the DOD Instruction for Motorcycle operations. http://www.sed.monmouth.army.mil/114/may08/mc2.pdf

Now what Soldiers do off post is hard to control, but not impossible. I require ALL my Soldier riders to complete the ARMY provided MSF BRC course. Yes, the give them free to us through post safety. The beauty of the military is that I can make it punitive if they do not meet my policy.

Sometimes a little intrusion into their lives is for their own good.

I need them back at work. Post deployment motorcycle accidents are way up.

Cheers, ride safe.
 

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Wonder who else is in that boat?


Just not enough riding time in our year. When I took the M/C out a weekend or two ago, it was the first time in almost 4 mos due to snow and ice on the roads. I knew the roads were clear (I drove them the day before) but I was a little nervous; maybe it was excitement but I took it as nervousness to be safe. Before I took off, I ran through the bike and ran riding techniques through my head as a little refresher.
 

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MSF Course

If the high command on post wants his soldiers to have a MSF certificate, perhaps they should make the course more available. I don't know about FT. Bragg or FT. Benning [my old homes] but FT. Stewart tells me I can't enroll till around June as they are full and active duty soldiers get priority. Understandable, but of no use to me.
The only ERC course that I can find off base has to have X number to run a group. Not as easy to get a new certificate as you might think. If you are going to demand it, command it. Remember, lead from the front, command from the center, critisize from the rear. Being a 100% disabled combat veteran, I don't stand a chance of getting a cert for 6 months. I guess that means I can't take the wing on base although I have been riding for 51 years and the group of 500 motorcycles that I "shepard across America from LA to DC each year, in formation all the way, requires [as of this year] an ERC cert no older than two years. Mine will be three years old in June.
I was sky diving before there was a USPA, SCUBA diving before there was NAUI, PADI, NACD, etc, and riding motorcycles before there was a M/C endorcement. Now, MSF. Maybe I'm just getting too old for all this.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The only ERC course that I can find off base has to have X number to run a group. Not as easy to get a new certificate as you might think. If you are going to demand it, command it. Remember, lead from the front, command from the center, critisize from the rear. Being a 100% disabled combat veteran, I don't stand a chance of getting a cert for 6 months.
Here at Fort Bragg, we have no issues. there are 2 BRC and 1 ERC class per week.

Even at Benning now, you can register online. It is a new thing. At benning BRC it is taught once or twice a week. But I don't see an ERC. BRC is all thats required for post. https://www.benning.army.mil/CombatReadiness/documents/motorcycle/MotorcycleSafetyReg.htm

Best of luck.
 

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100% :bow:

as an instructor in the UK, i aplaud all, whoever or wherever, that take the time to increase their respective skills and level of safety, well done you guys

:yes1::yes1::yes1::yes1::yes1:
 
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Cycledude, after teaching the MSF courses and taking them as well (many, many years ago), I decided to go take the ERC this summer. Man, it kicked my a$$. I was exhausted when it was over. Goes to show that I don't practice as much as I should. Wonder who else is in that boat?
I didn't know you were suppose to take that course in a boat... ;):lol:
 

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MSF Course

No problem, all I have to do is ride 500 miles to FT Benning or FT Bragg to take a course. I live on St. Simons Island, GA. Surely there is a course closer to home. FT Stewart is where I took it last, but that was during deployment and not too many soldiers were here.
I believe you will find that adrenalin rush is the main cause of "crotch rocket" accidents and not can you turn within an eight foot circle. Not saying the course isn't helpful, it just doesn't address the main cause of wrecks with the returning soldiers. I've talked to too many returning soldiers to make a false asumuption and I've lived the part myself.
When I last took the course, I was the only touring bike in the group, all the rest were crotch rockets. It's what is inside the rider's head that is causing the wrecks. The bike is like a gun, it will just sit there until someone picks it up and puts it to use.
 

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Black Hat said:
The only ERC course that I can find off base has to have X number to run a group. Not as easy to get a new certificate as you might think.

There may be other sources that you not have thought of to get your course done. If you can get to a Wing Ding, they have courses, they charge $50 but give you back $30. Also check with the State and local GWRRA chapters, sometimes they will run a class or have instructors that you may be able to contact for a class. Contact the state, in some states they have a listiing of places to take the course ie community college etc.
And if you belong to HRC they will refund some of the cost of taking a course.

Another thing all us "OLD DOGS" with years of riding, we can / should get involved with our younger soldiers, I am working with a command's "Motorcycle Mentorship Program" not only are we helping our soldiers, it helps to keep our skills up too. And, I discovered one of the other "Mentors" is a MSF intr, something I wouldn't have know if I wasn't involved. And with this connection, there is no problem keeping up my card, he'll do a "one on one" for his fellow "mentors"

And who know's, maybe I'll become an instructor at some time. I just wanted to pass on some thoughts, not only for Black Hat but for all to consider.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
No problem, all I have to do is ride 500 miles to FT Benning or FT Bragg to take a course. I live on St. Simons Island, GA. Surely there is a course closer to home. FT Stewart is where I took it last, but that was during deployment and not too many soldiers were here.
I believe you will find that adrenalin rush is the main cause of "crotch rocket" accidents and not can you turn within an eight foot circle. Not saying the course isn't helpful, it just doesn't address the main cause of wrecks with the returning soldiers. I've talked to too many returning soldiers to make a false asumuption and I've lived the part myself.
When I last took the course, I was the only touring bike in the group, all the rest were crotch rockets. It's what is inside the rider's head that is causing the wrecks. The bike is like a gun, it will just sit there until someone picks it up and puts it to use.
Fort Stewart has courses
 

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NOW... gear on federal installations will always be the "no skin below chin", never saw less. Many also require us to wear a reflective device like a reflective belt or hi visibility vest. There is no latitude.. see the below document.

Brace yourself... here is the DOD Instruction for Motorcycle operations. http://www.sed.monmouth.army.mil/114/may08/mc2.pdf

Problem with this is different military bases require different items. There is no standardization within one Branch let alone across all Branches
Sometimes a little intrusion into their lives is for their own good. :agree:
I need them back at work. Post deployment motorcycle accidents are way up.
This where a good mentorship program would help. Along with motorcycle awareness programs, for both the MC riders and cage drivers.

BTW if any base here in VA (or nation wide) would like to hire me to put together and run programs like these.. I'm available. :thumbup:
 

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Paleeeeeeeze! The Army has the most ******** motorcycle riding requirements for both on post and off post! Good God, I wouldn't be caught dead in those stupid looking safety vests you try to require!!! Ooooo, oooo, pick me to go buy an $85 vest that is virtually worthless unless you want to be a contestant on "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy". The required courses are a joke and for the most part a huge waste of money. Commanders who think they can control "their" soldier's safety off-post need to get a grip. Do you even remember when you were young? Let's see, do you remember "mandatory club call"....or "beer blades"...."..."bar slides"...."spurs"...."ringing the bell"...need I go on? Do today's commanders even realize that the "stupid" regs were written because of the things THEY did when THEY were YOUNG? Threatening your soldiers into good safety habits just makes you look like an old fart without a clue - which in some cases is point on. Take a look in the mirror and see what they see. Oh, and don't get me started on post safety days. Holding safety days where you show MC crashes is just entertainment - not safety. Here is an idea: how about "teaching" some good motorcycle safety hands-on on safety day? How about setting up a course that "demonstrates" good safety and what lack of safety measures can result in? You will not impact a young soldier's safety on a MC with your current regulations, mandates, threats, and other military manipulation. You want to issue things like "course/instructor evals" and "time-out cards" and then turn around and "order" them to take you seriously. OMG, I just have to stop before I EXPLODE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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