[Shiver]

Well, here we go again.

Back in January when I picked up the bike in NY, we had it running in the garage. The seller went into the house to find something and the bike died. It wouldn't start until I gave it about 1/2 throttle. It was rough and sputtery but then settled down (before the owner came back out).

When I got home and found enough tar on the roads to sneak out for the first ride, the F1 light came on every time I got on the Interstate.

Did an ECM reset and the light hasn't come back on.

I've been riding to work the last couple of weeks and everything was fine. Temps have been as cold as -15 and as warm as the mid 30's.

This morning (around 20 in the garage): crank, sputter, start, die. Crank, sputter, give it some gas, start, release throttle, die. Half throttle, start, hold 30 seconds, release and it barely runs at about 300 rpm. Helmet, gloves and I'm off to work. At each stop near work, the bike is running at a bit over 2000 rpm. Commute time is roughly 30 minutes.

After work - crank, crank, crank - no fire at all (temps in the upper teens). Tried full throttle, 1/2, off, finally gave up after about 5 minutes trying. Put my stuff away and tried it one more time - it sputtered and started. Whew - gear back on and headed home.

The idle jumped to about 2200 rpm within 6 blocks. When I let out the clutch, the RPMs would drop. Give it some gas and the bike nearly killed before taking off. It did this at each stop. If this bike had a carb, I'd say the idle jet was plugged, but the main jet was working fine. No clue what my symptoms tell me about fuel injection.

My plan was to do an ECM reset once I got home (which I did do). Unfortunately from a diagnostic perspective, the idle dropped back to normal and the bike was already running fine once I got home.

There is no way to tell if the ECM reset did anything because it seems to be running normally again. I'll take it to my Lions meeting tonight where it will sit out for a couple of hours, but I doubt this will prove much.

Even if it runs OK, it sure seems like this is just a time bomb waiting to go off over and over again until I figure it out.

940 miles so far (11k on the bike) and I'm wishing I would have bought new. :?

 

[Jolly Jim]

My first thought is a bunch of frozen mice stopping up the air filter.

 

[hunzee]

Need a whole bunch of info here.
Can you make the scenerio repeat?
FI light on?
Up to operating temp?
Certain temps, humidity?

I would run a couple of cans of Seafoam thru it and throw in a set of plugs and an air cleaner.

 

[GWNorman1800]

Dirt or even moisture/water in the fuel would be my suspicion.

 

[Fred H.]

My first thought is a bunch of frozen mice stopping up the air filter.

That's probably not a bad guess.

I'm doubtful that the ECM "reset" will have any effect. I would probably start with the standard, check the air filter, spark plugs, and maybe do a fuel pressure check. If you have an FI light, you need to get the code and see what it maps to. Could be you have a bad sensor (TPS, Baro, Map, etc).

As posted above, it could also be a problem with water in the fuel.

 

[cycledude]

have the valves ever been adjusted ? probably not with only 11,000 miles

my dealer had a brandnew wing that would not idle, Honda told them to check the valves and sure enough they were way out of adjustment, after they were adjusted properly everything was fine, sure makes me wonder how it ever got out of the factory like that

good news its supposed to get up to 40 degrees next week !

 

[dstevens]

sputter,sputter

Dirt or even moisture/water in the fuel would be my suspicion.

+1 on water in fuel or maybe some bad gas. Remember ECM reset has to done with a cold engine

 

[Shiver]

Need a whole bunch of info here.
Can you make the scenerio repeat? Yes - just got back and it definitely isn't running correctly. As Fred guessed, the ECM reset didn't help.
FI light on? No - I really wish I had a code so I had something to look at.
Up to operating temp? Yep - It did smell a bit hot when I backed into the garage, but the temp is right at the mid point.
Certain temps, humidity? Nothing I can pinpoint.

I would run a couple of cans of Seafoam thru it (this weekend) and throw in a set of plugs and an air cleaner.

The mice comment made me laugh, but it is actually already on my "once it gets warmer" to-do list to check. I'm going to install the wire mesh also so I don't have to ever worry about that again.

The bike was running very well until this morning. That should eliminate the valves as an issue unless something broke or was displaced. But to answer the question, I doubt they've been looked at. The seller couldn't even tell me what the mileage was for the last oil change, so I'm not even going to ask him about valves.

As far as fuel goes, I pretty much only fill at a couple of specific places locally in the winter. This gas is from S/A by my house where they have good turnover and I've never had a problem. Still, the Seafoam won't hurt and should help clear up any fuel icing issues. We can always hope that it's the "cheapest / easiest" that will save the day.

What's really strange though is that the engine has no extra revs when cold (no choke) but the RPM's get progressively higher as the engine temp rises. It's like the choke is running in reverse.:shrug: That's why I thought an ECM reset might help.

 

[Shiver]

+1 on water in fuel or maybe some bad gas. Remember ECM reset has to done with a cold engine

This is on my list to research.

I've read that it "MUST" be done with a cold engine. I've also read opinions where it can be done warm. I did mine warm because that was my only option.

My problem is that the bike won't start cold or stay running without my helping it along with the throttle. I'm going to try again Saturday cold and see if I can get it to start and stay running for the reset.

 

[techdude2000]

That sounds like a fuel injected engine with a vacuum leak. Maybe a hose came loose on the throttle body.

 

[Jolly Jim]

That sounds like a fuel injected engine with a vacuum leak. Maybe a hose came loose on the throttle body.

Bet they got hungry.

 

[Shiver]

:lol::lol:

Bet they got hungry.

The bike started right up and ran normally this morning and again after work. It's as if nothing was ever wrong. Same gas, no Seafoam, nothing different from the couple of trips yesterday when the bike didn't want to start or run correctly.:shrug:

The weather was exactly the same the last 2 days - lower single digits in the morning and lower 20's in the afternoon. I've probably ridden around 500 - 600 miles since riding through some rain early last week. Since then it's been dry and the temps have been moderate.

The sudden onset and disappearance of this problem probably eliminates a couple of potential sources, but I'm really no closer to figuring it out. Ice in an external connection somewhere or a faulty module seem like the 2 most likely causes. Now I'm curious if I will have the same issues once the temps stay above freezing.

All I know for sure is that the intermittent issues are the worst to figure out. My old '91 Buick acted the same way. Car would kill and not start, but no F1 codes. Turned out that the ECM was bad. After a couple of attempts, the mechanic finally figured it out when he tapped the ECM module and the car died.

Wish me luck. Guess I will keep driving it and see what turns up and how often I have problems.

And yes, I'm still going critter hunting when the garage warms up a bit more than it's current 20 degrees.

 

[hunzee]

Maybe your Mass Air Flow sensor is icing up.

I seen vehicles that run K&M air filters leave an oil film on the sensor that attracts dust and exibits similar symtoms.

 

[W1NGin1T]

11,000 miles on an '02....means it sat alot....check vacuum lines....


Good luck & let us know the outcome.

Mark

 

[mickey46]

I have CRS quite often and can't remember all of the story, but , didn't someone have the same problems last winter and it turned out to be water vapor pooling in a vacuum line and freezing . They eliminated the sag in the line and cured the problem. mdh

 

[Shiver]

I have CRS quite often and can't remember all of the story, but , didn't someone have the same problems last winter and it turned out to be water vapor pooling in a vacuum line and freezing . They eliminated the sag in the line and cured the problem. mdh

Interesting - I'll search through the old Tech messages and see if I can find something.

 

[cycledude]

well is it fixed yet ?

 

[PunkinDave]

There is no mass airflow sensor... That little thing in the air cleaner is a temp sensor..
Sounds like it could be a bad o2 sensor or perhaps a fuel pump/regulator issue..

 

[Fox in GA]

I was thinking the same as Mickey46 water somewhere freezing. The one I remember was water freezing in the air breather tubes that are part of the air-injection system off the air filter box. As I recall it was a miss routed hose between the air box and the crankcase breather. Off the back of the air box is two beather hoses the tee into one the go to the crankcase breather I think that is the hose that will collect consate and freeze if the hose isn't routed right.

Maybe this will help, keep us informed

 

[techdude2000]

Actually there is a manifold air pressure sensor in the front of the throttle body. I don't think it is going to be a sensor because the ECM would have set an error code and have the FI light on. I'm guessing there is an issue with the IAC or it's circuit. Possibly a connector loose. Mice could be the culprit as well.