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Discussion Starter #1
I picked up an '08 Navi Comfort with 37k a couple weeks ago. Started it and let it idle while I unloaded it from my truck and let it idle in my driveway while I put the tie downs and ramp away. After about 25 min I noticed it had started shooting coolant out of the overflow hose. I quickly shut it off and heard the coolant bubbling in the engine. Temp gauge was in the red but the fans were not running. Let it cool down, refilled the radiator and overflow bottle.

While doing a couple warm up/cool down cycles to get any air out I began looking for the problem. I jumped the high voltage side of the fan relay and both fans work perfectly. Also, relay is good. Problem is no 12+v on the hot wire of the relay trigger circuit. Turns out it had only been driven 60 miles in the last 15 months, had been stored in a barn, and had become home to a family of hard working mice. Most of their debris was in the airbox (pic coming if I can figure out how) which I found and cleaned out when I replaced the air filter. I can also see some debris above the left side cylinders, under what I assume are the intake throats. Haven't had the front fairing off to verify yet. I assume they chewed the 12+v wire that comes up from C11. In any case, over the next couple weeks I put about 500 trouble-free miles on and all seemed good.

I mention all this as some history for my current problem. Last week I did a valve check, found all valves on the tight end of the acceptable range with the #6 intake just a bit too tight. I pulled the left side cam, swapped a few shims, replaced a couple to bring all valves back to the middle of the range. While doing so I had trouble pulling the bucket off the #6 intake. It felt like there was a bit of a lip or tight spot that kept the bucket from sliding out of the bore. Wasn't glad to see that but in the end I figured it had gone 37k that way so it must be OK. I buttoned it back up and put another hundred or so trouble-free miles on it.

This morning I decided to do a compression test. Pulled the plugs and got started. The first couple readings went fine. Then, while spinning the engine for the next reading, I thought I heard a 'rap' sound. Wasn't sure I really heard something so I continued on. A bit later I heard it again, but decided it must have been something falling on the floor so I continued. Finally, while rechecking a reading on the left side I heard it again and it sounded like it came from the area of that #6 cylinder so I stopped. The only thing I can think it might be is that valve bucket sticking open a bit and then releasing and slapping up against the cam.

Any thoughts? Should I take the cam back out and take a look? Maybe switch a different bucket in there and see if it also seems tight? All thoughts welcomed!
 

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My guess would be not to swap lifters aroud. They wear to their bores and could/would damage other lifter bores. Check the suspect lifter with a micrometer to see if it is mushroomed or if it has a high spot. You may need to replace it. If you think a valve is sticking, it wouldn't hurt to use a fuel system cleaner that also cleans the valves and combustion chamber. I use Amsoil PI at 5k intervals in the bike and cars. HTH
 

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RE: Your observation on the fan relays, I had a prob. on my ’05 and it turned out to be the Engine control computer wasn’t sending a signal to turn on the fans. Might be part of the problem.
 

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Seems unlikely to have a problem with the bucket or the bore. The effort required to remove the buckets varies from bucket to bucket. I think that's a function of how tight the oil film is in that bore. On my '08, sometimes it took just one magnet to pull some buckets out, other times two. Having said that, I don't know what would cause your noise. I doubt you'll find a lip but if the bucket was really hard to remove, requiring more than a magnet, I would check it. Check for scoring, measure for roundness. The service manual says to be sure to reinstall the buckets into the same bore from which they came, so if you want to try to fit another in #6 to see how it slides, you can but I wouldn't run it. Other thoughts: does the cam lobe look good and like the others, is the bore smooth with no signs of scoring, is your cam timing correct?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
RE: Your observation on the fan relays, I had a prob. on my ’05 and it turned out to be the Engine control computer wasn’t sending a signal to turn on the fans. Might be part of the problem.
I'm no electrical expert but as I understand it the 12v+ side should always be hot. The ECM turns the fans on by grounding the other side.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Seems unlikely to have a problem with the bucket or the bore. The effort required to remove the buckets varies from bucket to bucket. I think that's a function of how tight the oil film is in that bore. On my '08, sometimes it took just one magnet to pull some buckets out, other times two. Having said that, I don't know what would cause your noise. I doubt you'll find a lip but if the bucket was really hard to remove, requiring more than a magnet, I would check it. Check for scoring, measure for roundness. The service manual says to be sure to reinstall the buckets into the same bore from which they came, so if you want to try to fit another in #6 to see how it slides, you can but I wouldn't run it. Other thoughts: does the cam lobe look good and like the others, is the bore smooth with no signs of scoring, is your cam timing correct?
It did require more than a magnet, and I had a pretty strong magnet. I ended up having to cover it with a cloth and grab it with pliers to get it out.

I didn't see any dark discoloration on either the lifter or bore but there was some wear which I assumed was normal. I did not measure the bucket for roundness.

Cam lobe looked fine, all smooth and shiny. I'm pretty sure I got the timing right as I checked it a couple times and the bike ran great.

I really can't think of anything else it could be. At this point I guess I'm going to take the cover off and take a look. I'll double check the timing and then probably pull the cam and try another bucket in there just to see if it moves more freely. Maybe try the sticky bucket in another bore to see if it slides freely. New bucket are fairly cheap if I decide I need one.
 

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GL1800 Doctor
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I'm no electrical expert but as I understand it the 12v+ side should always be hot. The ECM turns the fans on by grounding the other side.
Correct, the hot side comes through C11 and C25 from the FI/Ignition relay. The relay is good or the ECM would be dead. It could be getting lost anywhere from C25 to the fan relay due to critters.

Make sure you nail down whether or not that bucket is sticking, you could bend that valve if it’s binding in the bore. You should be able to slide it out without it hanging up.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Correct, the hot side comes through C11 and C25 from the FI/Ignition relay. The relay is good or the ECM would be dead. It could be getting lost anywhere from C25 to the fan relay due to critters.

Make sure you nail down whether or not that bucket is sticking, you could bend that valve if it’s binding in the bore. You should be able to slide it out without it hanging up.
Looking at page 13-2 of the electrical FSM I don't see anything about C25. To me, and again I'm no expert, it looks like the power comes straight from C11. As I understand it I pretty much have to remove the tank to get to C11, right?

As far as the bucket goes, it definitely hangs up on the way out of the bore, but of course it never gets that far up with the cam installed. I don't know how I would check if it hangs up while opening the valve. Maybe run the starter with the cover off and watch it?

Any other ideas what could have made that sound? The sound was as if you rapped a valve cover with the plastic end of a screwdriver. Not so much a 'clank' as a 'click' or, as I said, a 'rap'.

Pic of the mouse nest. There's an air filter under there somewhere!
 

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I don't know whether your noise is a sticking cam follower but I do know that swapping used followers is a no-no. It's not so much the follower bore that is an issue but the cam lobe wears a slightly grooved pattern onto the surface of the follower. Swapping two followers will create a mismatch on those two cam lobes with consequent extremely high loads where only the high spots on both the lobe and the follower rub together.

The followers should spin in their bores, it's caused by the wiping action of the cam lobe, the lobes are deliberately offset over the follower to encourage the rotation of the follower. This is done to prevent rubbing so the cam lobe effectively rolls over the follower surface. Now, carefully look at the surface of the follower on the errant cylinder, if the follower is sticking you will see a definite rub patch on the follower surface.

This isn't in any way a guarantee of the follower sticking down but it will be a clue that there may be a problem since a tight follower will not spin.

If the follower proves to be faulty, freeing it is not a complete solution because is will now have a slight indentation where is was being rubbed by the cam lobe and it is likely to rotate to that position and stay there. In this case you've got two options, a new follower or reface the old one. Followers are normally made from chilled cast iron and so the surface hardening is deep enough to allow refacing unless it's seriously worn. You can easily reface the follower by rubbing it in a circular motion on a sheet of wet-or-dry abrasive paper. The paper must be supported on a perfectly flat surface and you should adjust your grip accasionally to prevent uneven wear. A piece of class is a good flat surface. I'd use 320 grit paper until the surface marks are all but removed then follow with 600 grit paper for finishing. Lubricate the paper with oil. Work it until all surface marks are removed then no more.

Now you've got issue number two whether the follower is new or refaced. The follower is flat but the cam is worn to a pattern so the lobe will be subjected to high pressure. The best you can do is lubricate it really well before closing up the engine and drive fairly softly to allow the cam to break in the follower just as you would with a new bike. The first rubbing is critical and you can buy special cam lubricant for this very purpose but using gear oil on the lobe is likely just as good since gear oil is a high pressure lubricant designed for use on rubbing surfaces.

Hopefully you won't have to do any of this but there you have it if it's necessary.

I doubt whether you're hearing the follower jump up to clatter the cam but if it's sticking down the risk is that you will get piston to valve contact.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I don't know whether your noise is a sticking cam follower but I do know that swapping used followers is a no-no. It's not so much the follower bore that is an issue but the cam lobe wears a slightly grooved pattern onto the surface of the follower. Swapping two followers will create a mismatch on those two cam lobes with consequent extremely high loads where only the high spots on both the lobe and the follower rub together.

The followers should spin in their bores, it's caused by the wiping action of the cam lobe, the lobes are deliberately offset over the follower to encourage the rotation of the follower. This is done to prevent rubbing so the cam lobe effectively rolls over the follower surface. Now, carefully look at the surface of the follower on the errant cylinder, if the follower is sticking you will see a definite rub patch on the follower surface.

This isn't in any way a guarantee of the follower sticking down but it will be a clue that there may be a problem since a tight follower will not spin.

If the follower proves to be faulty, freeing it is not a complete solution because is will now have a slight indentation where is was being rubbed by the cam lobe and it is likely to rotate to that position and stay there. In this case you've got two options, a new follower or reface the old one. Followers are normally made from chilled cast iron and so the surface hardening is deep enough to allow refacing unless it's seriously worn. You can easily reface the follower by rubbing it in a circular motion on a sheet of wet-or-dry abrasive paper. The paper must be supported on a perfectly flat surface and you should adjust your grip accasionally to prevent uneven wear. A piece of class is a good flat surface. I'd use 320 grit paper until the surface marks are all but removed then follow with 600 grit paper for finishing. Lubricate the paper with oil. Work it until all surface marks are removed then no more.

Now you've got issue number two whether the follower is new or refaced. The follower is flat but the cam is worn to a pattern so the lobe will be subjected to high pressure. The best you can do is lubricate it really well before closing up the engine and drive fairly softly to allow the cam to break in the follower just as you would with a new bike. The first rubbing is critical and you can buy special cam lubricant for this very purpose but using gear oil on the lobe is likely just as good since gear oil is a high pressure lubricant designed for use on rubbing surfaces.

Hopefully you won't have to do any of this but there you have it if it's necessary.

I doubt whether you're hearing the follower jump up to clatter the cam but if it's sticking down the risk is that you will get piston to valve contact.
Holy Cow!! Did not know there was this much to cams and valves! Thanks for all the info....

Regarding swapping the followers, I was only thinking of swapping them in to see if they bound up, maybe point me in the direction of what the problem is, not actually running it that way.

Now that you mention it, it makes sense about the spinning of the followers in their bores. I'll check it for unusual wear. If it does have unusual wear I don't think Ill refinish it, for $30 I'd put in a new one and follow normal break in procedure.

I agree that it's hard to believe the rapping noise is a follower hitting the cam, but I can't imagine what else it could be. FWIW, I never heard this noise while the engine was running before the compression test. Also, the compression test involved a lot more runs than normal as I had some odd readings from a poorly sealing compression test insert so I reran the test with a second insert. All readings were then within 5 psi of new.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks to all who responded and sorry for the slow replies. I had responded to both Techdude2000 and JW but just now found my posts listed as deleted. Does anybody know if they are actually deleted or if that's a holding area because I'm a FNG?
 

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Thanks to all who responded and sorry for the slow replies. I had responded to both Techdude2000 and JW but just now found my posts listed as deleted. Does anybody know if they are actually deleted or if that's a holding area because I'm a FNG?
I see nothing that says anything was deleted. Your OP was delayed a little, as happens sometimes with new members. As soon as I saw it, I approved it and 'bumped' it back to the top.
Edit. OK, see some more. Fixing it now. (we're going as fast as we can)
 

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Now that you mention it, it makes sense about the spinning of the followers in their bores. I'll check it for unusual wear. If it does have unusual wear I don't think Ill refinish it, for $30 I'd put in a new one and follow normal break in procedure..
I understand your thinking but you'll need to start from scratch in setting the clearance for that follower. Here's a little trick for you: since the shim only wears a pocket where it contacts the end of the valve stem, if you flip it over so the old valve contact side is against inside the bucket of the follower, you've effectively now got a shim of original thickness.

It's obviously your call but, personally I'd reface it because the thou or so you remove from the top of the follower will in all probability be about right to set your valve clearance back within tolerance.

Anyway, whatever you decide, good luck with it! :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I understand your thinking but you'll need to start from scratch in setting the clearance for that follower. Here's a little trick for you: since the shim only wears a pocket where it contacts the end of the valve stem, if you flip it over so the old valve contact side is against inside the bucket of the follower, you've effectively now got a shim of original thickness.

It's obviously your call but, personally I'd reface it because the thou or so you remove from the top of the follower will in all probability be about right to set your valve clearance back within tolerance.
Good point about the clearance, but that wouldn't fix the underlying problem of a sticky follower. On the other hand replacing the follower would be a big PIA, probably requiring me to put the cam back in, turn the engine over a few times, measure the clearance, remove the cam, put the correct size shim in and button it all back up. I'm starting to feel like I should just put the plugs back in it, hit the start button and see what happens. Can't tell if I'm being pragmatic or just plain old lazy!
 

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I picked up an '08 Navi Comfort with 37k a couple weeks ago. Started it and let it idle while I unloaded it from my truck and let it idle in my driveway while I put the tie downs and ramp away. After about 25 min I noticed it had started shooting coolant out of the overflow hose. I quickly shut it off and heard the coolant bubbling in the engine. Temp gauge was in the red but the fans were not running. Let it cool down, refilled the radiator and overflow bottle.

While doing a couple warm up/cool down cycles to get any air out I began looking for the problem. I jumped the high voltage side of the fan relay and both fans work perfectly. Also, relay is good. Problem is no 12+v on the hot wire of the relay trigger circuit. Turns out it had only been driven 60 miles in the last 15 months, had been stored in a barn, and had become home to a family of hard working mice. Most of their debris was in the airbox (pic coming if I can figure out how) which I found and cleaned out when I replaced the air filter. I can also see some debris above the left side cylinders, under what I assume are the intake throats. Haven't had the front fairing off to verify yet. I assume they chewed the 12+v wire that comes up from C11. In any case, over the next couple weeks I put about 500 trouble-free miles on and all seemed good.

I mention all this as some history for my current problem. Last week I did a valve check, found all valves on the tight end of the acceptable range with the #6 intake just a bit too tight. I pulled the left side cam, swapped a few shims, replaced a couple to bring all valves back to the middle of the range. While doing so I had trouble pulling the bucket off the #6 intake. It felt like there was a bit of a lip or tight spot that kept the bucket from sliding out of the bore. Wasn't glad to see that but in the end I figured it had gone 37k that way so it must be OK. I buttoned it back up and put another hundred or so trouble-free miles on it.

This morning I decided to do a compression test. Pulled the plugs and got started. The first couple readings went fine. Then, while spinning the engine for the next reading, I thought I heard a 'rap' sound. Wasn't sure I really heard something so I continued on. A bit later I heard it again, but decided it must have been something falling on the floor so I continued. Finally, while rechecking a reading on the left side I heard it again and it sounded like it came from the area of that #6 cylinder so I stopped. The only thing I can think it might be is that valve bucket sticking open a bit and then releasing and slapping up against the cam.

Any thoughts? Should I take the cam back out and take a look? Maybe switch a different bucket in there and see if it also seems tight? All thoughts welcomed!
I dunno about the GL1800, but most motors, in addition to the cam lobes being offset, they are tapered about 3 minutes (60 minutes=1 degree). Also, the buckets' mating surfaces are spherical. The taper and conical specs are so slight, it is difficult to measure them without access to professional equipment. So it is NOT a good idea to attempt to resurface the buckets by hand. But you can usually check the ends of two buckets by putting the ends together, there my be an ever so slight rocking motion, but sometimes difficult to discern.

It sounds like the bucket may be hanging up in the bore, for whatever reason. I'd begin by gently cleaning the bucket and bore real good, with a green Scotch pat and something like acetone. Then light coat of oil on both, and re-check for fit. Before cleaning, inspect the surfaces very carefully with strong light and a magnifying glass, if possible, to try to pinpoint surface scuffs or other imperfections. If in doubt, I'd install a new bucket. As for swapping with other buckets to test fit, fine, but don't get them mixed up, and put them all back in their original positions before reassembly. I'd also look closely at the related valve spring and keepers.

CORRECTION: The cam follower's face is spherical, not conical. I knew what I meant, but crewed up the terminology. Corrections have been made in all instances where I used the incorrect term. Sry bout that!
 

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GL1800 Doctor
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Looking at page 13-2 of the electrical FSM I don't see anything about C25. To me, and again I'm no expert, it looks like the power comes straight from C11. As I understand it I pretty much have to remove the tank to get to C11, right?

As far as the bucket goes, it definitely hangs up on the way out of the bore, but of course it never gets that far up with the cam installed. I don't know how I would check if it hangs up while opening the valve. Maybe run the starter with the cover off and watch it?

Any other ideas what could have made that sound? The sound was as if you rapped a valve cover with the plastic end of a screwdriver. Not so much a 'clank' as a 'click' or, as I said, a 'rap'.

Pic of the mouse nest. There's an air filter under there somewhere!
You’re only seeing part of the circuit on 13-2. If you follow the link from C11 to the fuel system diagram(8-3), you will find the supply side of the circuit and C25. Since the engine runs, there has to be power coming to C11, so the break is from there to the coil of the fan relay.
 

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I dunno about the GL1800, but most motors, in addition to the cam lobes being offset, they are tapered about 3 minutes (60 minutes=1 degree). Also, the buckets' mating surfaces are conical. The taper and conical specs are so slight, it is difficult to measure them without access to professional equipment.
I'm aware of the taper on cam lobes and the cam lobes on the wing are certainly tapered, I've measured them. I've refaced many followers without issue but never seen conical ones though I don't doubt they exist. I guess though that the cam will soon have them angled during break in.

SCB, if you're at the dealers getting followers, see if you can get two face to face to check for flatness, it would be interesting to know. :thumbup:
 
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