GL1800Riders Forums banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of JULY's Ride of the Month Challenge!
141 - 160 of 161 Posts

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #141 · (Edited)
Is a casting flaw / 'fat dog' the same as a defective part?
It depends on who is making the judgement. To a manufacture, who's doing mass production, it might be within their tolerance. Here add'l machining is done while indexing all the dogs in relationship to the others. So the "fat dog" gets a little more metal machined off to match the others.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #142 ·
Gary with a 2007 who had removed his engine, called and asked if I will open his engine, do a trans repair, and reinstall his engine. He reports that occasionally he had a shift issue, knew there was something wrong with his transmission, and while doing 80mph on the freeway, totally lost 5th gear. He says he finally understands what ghost shifting is.

Unfortunately my answer was no. There was a time I was willing to take in any Wing all in pieces, but the reality is this. I have plenty of work and would rather work on something else. However, I do repair crate motors. So he'll probably ship his engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,362 Posts
Greg, when you repair a crate motor do you test run the motor after the repair?
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #144 · (Edited)
Greg, when you repair a crate motor do you test run the motor after the repair?
No ... engine testing is done the old fashion. Each engine is reassembled using Honda's Service Manual as the guide. Here at JustWings, every step is rechecked before proceeding to the next step. For example, after all main bearings are installed, and their oil clearance is checked using Platigauge, and the main caps refitted and re-torqued, then the next test is to verify that the crank shaft spins correctly, and has acceptable end play. From there an piston/rod assembly is installed, and similar checks are done ... and the process continues. Because this is a specialty shop, it's similar to flipping burgers at MacDonalds, just a lot more involved.

The best part about being a specialty shop is knowing exactly where to look. We don't waist time looking there, or over here, look right there !!!

To my knowledge, Honda is the only one with an actual engine "test bench" for GoldWing engines. I used to think about making one, but since I've never had a problem with an engine, it's hard to justify, plus it would also take up space.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #145 ·
So what are your "personal" tolerances that are acceptable for shaft runout? 1 mil, 2 mils, 3 mils? How many shafts do you check before you find one that meets your "personal" tolerance for runout?
Our tolerances are proprietary info, as well as the angle of the back cut we do, and info on add'l machining that is done for the 2014 gears to fit, is also pripriotry. As for how often we find a shaft that is out-side of our spec, I'm not sure. The picture below represents a dump run (they were actually take to a recycler) of more then 60 transmissions, and I count 9 main/counter shafts, and an output shaft. There are also a couple laying around here that probably should have been tossed too. So that's 11 out of 60. But, some of the main-shaft are replaced because they have a bad bearing. According to Honda's part's fishe, the locknut, the bearing, and a collar are not serviceable. I do recall that probably at least 2 of them were replaced because of broken dog ... there was evidance of a cunk in some gear teeth that a chunk of metal had gone between them. One of those had just been repaired by Honda, and was then outside of Honda's 3 year warranty.

Thus far, I recall sending 2 new shafts back, and reordering again waiting for a better one. However, usually new shafts coming from Honda have very little runout.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #146 ·
Do we repair Valkyries ???
A guy stops in wanting to know. Yes the newer 2014-15s, but not the older ones. His reply ... darn, and you specialize too ... I was so hoping !!!
 

·
Love The DCT
Joined
·
12,448 Posts
Our tolerances are proprietary info, as well as the angle of the back cut we do, and info on add'l machining that is done for the 2014 gears to fit, is also pripriotry. As for how often we find a shaft that is out-side of our spec, I'm not sure. The picture below represents a dump run (they were actually take to a recycler) of more then 60 transmissions, and I count 9 main/counter shafts, and an output shaft. There are also a couple laying around here that probably should have been tossed too. So that's 11 out of 60. But, some of the main-shaft are replaced because they have a bad bearing. According to Honda's part's fishe, the locknut, the bearing, and a collar are not serviceable. I do recall that probably at least 2 of them were replaced because of broken dog ... there was evidance of a cunk in some gear teeth that a chunk of metal had gone between them. One of those had just been repaired by Honda, and was then outside of Honda's 3 year warranty.

Thus far, I recall sending 2 new shafts back, and reordering again waiting for a better one. However, usually new shafts coming from Honda have very little runout.
OK, so your tolerances are "proprietary." This is what you stated: "The shafts are also put on a lathe and inspected for excessive runout. Honda also allows for 0.004" runout in the shafts, our tolerances are far tighter than that. The only down-side to this level of repair is the add'l cost and time."

Let's use a hypothetical situation. I bring my bike to you for ghost shifting. You check the shafts for runout and the shafts in my tranny have a runout of 0.0025." Lets say your personal proprietary runout tolerance is 0.0015." Since the shafts don't meet your personal proprietary tolerance, you reject the shafts even though they are under the Honda service limit and there are no other defects.

Bottom line Greg; I'm not going to pay you the time/cost to find shafts that meet your personal proprietary tolerance limits when my shafts have a runout of 0.0025," they have no defects and they are obviously under Honda's service limit of 0.004." You always push Honda OEM everything, follow the service manual, and the the owners manual. In my hypothetical case, I would expect you to follow the Honda service manual which says the service limit runout is 0.004" and put the shafts back into the tranny.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #148 · (Edited)
Another one getting towed in from a Honda dealer

I've got one coming in on a hook from the Honda dealer up the street. The owner Jill is actually a great customer who wanted to bring her trike here, maybe back in March. Unfortunanly back then, and the same is true now, my work load is such I'm still not able to get to it as quick as she needs. Apparently in March she was selling it, and had a potential buyer.

Anyway, yesterday she called. It was still at the dealer, and they are now recommending that she take it to a GW specialty shop. After they cleaned out the old fuel, replaced the fuel pump, and all 6 injectors too, they now report that she has 0 compression in one of the cylinders. The other 5 are somewhat sporatic from 190-245psi. I think her bill with them is between $2,000 - $3,000. They are now saying the heads need to come off.

It just came in. Receipts are in the trunk total $2906.29.
Compression: 1-245, 2-190, 3-195, 4-0, 5-190, 6-215. Leak down 80% on #4.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #149 · (Edited)
OK, so your tolerances are "proprietary." This is what you stated: "The shafts are also put on a lathe and inspected for excessive runout. Honda also allows for 0.004" runout in the shafts, our tolerances are far tighter than that. The only down-side to this level of repair is the add'l cost and time."

Let's use a hypothetical situation. I bring my bike to you for ghost shifting. You check the shafts for runout and the shafts in my tranny have a runout of 0.0025." Lets say your personal proprietary runout tolerance is 0.0015." Since the shafts don't meet your personal proprietary tolerance, you reject the shafts even though they are under the Honda service limit and there are no other defects.

Bottom line Greg; I'm not going to pay you the time/cost to find shafts that meet your personal proprietary tolerance limits when my shafts have a runout of 0.0025," they have no defects and they are obviously under Honda's service limit of 0.004." You always push Honda OEM everything, follow the service manual, and the the owners manual. In my hypothetical case, I would expect you to follow the Honda service manual which says the service limit runout is 0.004" and put the shafts back into the tranny.
Yes ... for the most part, one can follow the Service Manual. However, there are some cases where their spec does not work well ... sometimes I point that out. If you worked on enough 5th gens you would know some of the ones I'm refering too. For example, according to Honda, head and case warpage in the head gasket area is 0.004" each. Without confirming that, and if I'm recalling that information correctly, apparently a Honda head gasket will seal upto 0.008" of warpage. When was the last time you found a 5th gen head gasket capable of doing that ???

In your hypothetical case, you might be far happier by taking your tranny repair to one of those Honda techs that are not able to tell that 5th gens shift best in cold weather with new oil. Wasn't it you who'd stated that ???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,652 Posts
Greg, you fill a market need, created by Honda's refusal to provide competent repair for 'older' bikes. They're 'following the money' in focusing on selling new versus repairing old, same as most other MC dealers. As a result resale drops rapidly, with GL1800s being a rare exception. AFAIK, Harley dealers still repair older HDs, and employ plenty of trained mechs. Still, it may now be hard to find dealer repair of a Pan, Shovel, or even EVO, since the last EVO was 1999. Similar with BMW Airheads, last made in 1995.

Luckily, lotsa 'unauthorized' shops flourish for old Harleys and Airheads, largely bc they tend to need frequent repair. There are not many such shops for GWs, for good reasons, IMHO: they are not as prone to breakage, and design does not lend itself to easy component replacement. Contrast with Airheads, which need transmission R/R every 80,000 to 100,000 miles (but nobody blames 'design flaw'). Similarly, aftermarket Harley transmissions have flourished for decades, so it's often cheaper to replace than repair, while gaining upgrades, i.e. an extra gear. I replaced/upgraded my last Harley's transmission (1986 EVO) at around 80,000 miles.

A difference between old Harley and Airhead shops and yours is, I've never heard them bad mouth the MCs they work on, as you do here. You insist 2001-2010 GLs are all junk, since ALL of the 150,000 or so sold, are prone to transmission failure due to 'design flaw'. Further, it is not economically feasible to R/R them. The phone-cons you recount border on bizarre; you advise callers they've been ripped off, and 'best to unload it on someone else, like was done to you', rather than simply quoting prices, terms, turn around time, etc.. I cannot understand why they'd call you, or who is passing your phone number around, since your answers sound more insulting than helpful.

Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps our moderators should place bullets from your posts, above each Classified Ad for 2001-2010 GW; all caps, in red, as WARNING to potential buyers.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #151 · (Edited)
Greg, you fill a market need, created by Honda's refusal to provide competent repair for 'older' bikes. They're 'following the money' in focusing on selling new versus repairing old, same as most other MC dealers. As a result resale drops rapidly, with GL1800s being a rare exception. AFAIK, Harley dealers still repair older HDs, and employs plenty of trained mechs. Still, it may now be hard to find dealer repair of a Pan, Shovel, or even EVO, since the last EVO was 1999. Similar with BMW Airheads, last made in 1995.

Still, lotsa 'unauthorized' shops flourish for old Harleys and Airheads, thankfully, bc they tend to need frequent repair. There are not many such shops for GWs, for good reasons: they are not as prone to breakage, and design does not lend itself to easy component replacement. Contrast with Airheads, which need transmission R/R every 80,000 to 100,000 miles (but nobody blames it on 'design flaw'). Similarly, aftermarket Harley transmissions have flourished for decades, so it's often cheaper to replace than repair, while gaining upgrades, i.e. an extra gear. I replaced/upgraded my last Harley's transmission (1986 EVO) at around 80,000 miles.

A difference between old Harley and Airhead shops and yours is, I've never heard them bad mouth the MCs they work on, as you do here. You insist 2001-2010 GL1800s are all junk, since ALL of the 150,000 or so sold, are prone to transmission failure due to 'design flaw'. Further, it is not economically feasible to R/R them. The phone-cons you recount border on bizarre, that you advise callers they've been ripped off, and 'best to unload it on someone else, like was done to you', rather than simply quoting your prices, terms, turn around time, etc.. I cannot understand why they'd call you, or who is passing your phone number around, since your answers sound more insulting than helpful.

Maybe I am wrong. Perhaps our moderators should place bullets from your posts, above each Classified Ad for 2001-2010 GW; all caps, in red, as WARNING to potential buyers.
Humm ... thanks for the feed back, but I would never call 2001-10s junk. I would and do call them a nearly perfect touring machine that does have it faults. As with past GWs, Honda contiunes to perfect them, like to the point where there is nothing else within reason to fix, then they move on. It is one of those things that makes them as a company unusual, and I very much respect them for it.

However, I do share my experiance and do advised others what can happend to if they buy a used 5th gen Wing. I'm guessing you don't, but I do get calls on them, and I do get to here from concerned owners. Not only that, I get to ride and feel what they call about. Other members are often sharing about cracked frames, ADG failures, and final drives. Hopefully they are sharing their experiances too. As for warning potential buyers in red, that might be a good idea ... but it just depends on what side of the fence a person is on. If they end up with a transmission problem after buying used, then they say things like "I wish I would have known" and hear them say that often.

As for my posts ... I think of them as front page new, and of coarse some don't like reading the front page of a news paper. If you are not happy with my posts, please, please please, put me on your ignor lists ... it's not like I'm begging you others to read what I write. I'm perfectly fine with people not likeing what I write, and I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.

Have you ever heard the expression ... "it no longer matters what other people think of me" and with that comes tremenous freedom of "ones self." My hope for you is that someday you'll be able to fell the same ... for me it's very "freeing."
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #152 · (Edited)
Another one getting towed in from a Honda dealer

I've got one coming in on a hook from the Honda dealer up the street. The owner Jill is actually a great customer who wanted to bring her trike here, maybe back in March. Unfortunanly back then, and the same is true now, my work load is such I'm still not able to get to it as quick as she needs. Apparently in March she was selling it, and had a potential buyer.

Anyway, yesterday she called. It was still at the dealer, and they are now recommending that she take it to a GW specialty shop. After they cleaned out the old fuel, replaced the fuel pump, and all 6 injectors too, they now report that she has 0 compression in one of the cylinders. The other 5 are somewhat sporatic from 190-245psi. I think her bill with them is between $2,000 - $3,000. They are now saying the heads need to come off.

It just came in. Receipts are in the trunk total $2906.29.
Compression: 1-245, 2-190, 3-195, 4-0, 5-190, 6-215. Leak down 80% on #4.
After the injectors and fuel pump were replaced, here are pictures of the fuel tank.
386990


386991


386992
 

·
Love The DCT
Joined
·
12,448 Posts
Yes ... for the most part, one can follow the Service Manual.
Hmm. If I remember corectly, your always reminding everyone to follow the service manual, and the owner's manual. Now your saying sometimes it's OK not to follow the service manual? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

However, there are some cases where their spec does not work well ... sometimes I point that out. If you worked on enough 5th gens you would know some of the ones I'm refering too. For example, according to Honda, head and case warpage in the head gasket area is 0.004" each. Without confirming that, and if I'm recalling' that information correctly, apparently a Honda head gasket will seal upto 0.008" of warpage. When was the last time you found a 5th gen head gasket capable of doing that ???
I'm not going to worry about a Honda head gasket supposedly being able to seal up to 0.008" of warpage when the service limit for cylinder head warpage is 0.004." It's really simple. The cylinder head is going to get replaced if the warpage exceeds the service limit.

Your tap dancing around things just like you tap danced when you got called on the carpet by various members in July of 2014 regarding your posts on "New ECM Calibration Procedures and it corrects much of the cold start-up hesitation as well on the 2012 plus bikes. According to you, battery health had to be at 100% as determined by only using a Honda battery tester. When asked by various members to produce the Honda document regarding this, you couldn't produce it. One member even went so far as to go a Honda dealer and talk to a person he has known for years. They looked through various electronic communications from American Honda Motor. There has been no communication to the dealer about any new procedure from American Honda Motor for resetting the ECM on the GL1800. What's hilarious is you used a Yuasa battery tester to determine battery health before you did the mysterious hot start calibration procedure. What's even more hilarious is another post were you said; "I no longer recommend the Hot Start Calibration."

In your hypothetical case, you might be far happier by taking your tranny repair to one of those Honda techs that are not able to tell that 5th gens shift best in cold weather with new oil. Wasn't it you who'd stated that ???
You stated "All 5th gens shift best in cold weather with new oil." This is your blanket statement as we all know you did not go out and ask every single 5th gen owner if their bike shifts best in cold weather with new oil. If you went out and asked every single person who owned a 5th gen wing (that includes me) and they all told you the bikes shifts best in cold weather with new oil, I would believe you.

In my hypothetical tranny case, I would support the dealer in my neck of the woods and take the bike to them were the master tech doesn't use his own "proprietary" tolerances instead of the value/s in the service manual.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,652 Posts
Greg, you missed my point. It's not about you, it's about 5th Gen GoldWing transmissions, and whether they have a 'design flaw' that causes them all to fail. As a trouble free, 84,000 mile Gen V owner, and aware of many others with impressive high mileage, I am curious. First question that comes to mind: does your population sample of maybe .01 percent of the 150,000, 5th Gens sold confirm the remaining 99.99 percent all have the same design flaw? Your experience is with broken transmissions and their owners. When they call, you inform of the design flaw, and offer few options: cut their losses and sell for salvage; 'unload' it onto the next victim, or repair it properly in your shop with your 'proprietary' parts, at a cost that likely exceeds market value of the bike.

If your above claim was to gain traction, as it may on public forums, the negative consequences are numerous; it paints a nightmarish picture for all 5th Gen owners, and could cause perspective buyers to run like scalded dogs. IMHO, for me to simply not read your posts, as you have suggested, or read and not speak out, would equate to 'willful blindness', so I offer the following: Your sample pop is minuscule, and biased, since it only includes broken transmissions. For the remaining 99.99 percent, you have no data, since none of them call to say their transmissions are OK.

If my 5th Gen's transmission were to break tomorrow (Heaven forbid), I'd accept the odds (99.99 to .01) and use factory parts, or simply swap it with a good used transmission, with same odds. I am sure your fix would be great, but unaffordable and probably not necessary for me.

Then too, perception is important, you perceive your posts as 'front page news' but I perceive it is just more transmission bashing, and cannot relate. Your other posts clearly document there are lotsa neglected, abused GoldWings out there, and your shop is a magnet for them. I doubt you'll ever have to worry about volume of business. Again, it ain't about you, it's about the negative consequences of your assertions which, to me, are controversial.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #156 · (Edited)
First question that comes to mind: does your population sample of maybe .01 percent of the 150,000, 5th Gens sold confirm the remaining 99.99 percent all have the same design flaw? First answer NO. It only confirms that the ones I've seen have a high/low dog design. Also, trying to find an external way to diaganos other 5th gens at one point had me look in thru the speed sensor hole and those 5th gens also had a high/low dog design too. And, occasionally when doing other engine repair, a case is opened up, and those transmissions also had a high/low dog design. So for sake of argument, of manbe 80 engines that I've been able to actually see transmission gears, all had a high/low dog design. So if you wanted to, lets assume that all others had a different design.

Apparently there was only one question
I'm thought we've been through all this before, and we might be splitting hairs. If so, hopefully we can agree to disagree.

To my knowledge, all 5th gens have a high/low dog design. When I order new parts, the same is true ... most new gears come with high/low dogs. The only ones that don't are 2014-17 4th and 5th gear in, and the 2/3 slider. So yes, because of the high/low dog design, all can fail, but that does not mean all do. Hopefully you've had a college level logic class, and have learned that although many statements within a sentance can be true, if there is one statement in a sentence that is false, the entire sentence is then considered false.

If I've posted something that is incorrect, please let me know so that I can correct it. It is not my intension to misslead anyone.

As with all mechanical designs that I know of and have ever seen, all are failing, is wearing and will eventually fail, or has failed. Only really, really, really poorly designed parts become extreemly prediactable, and one can almost predict when failure will occur. The exact oposite is true with 5th gen transmissions.

Lots of parts, for example 5th gen final drives, fail on a standard bell curve. I don't think I know of a final drive that failed below 20k or at 2,000 miles. However, our transmissions are a different story. Some have issues in less then 2,000 miles. The youngest one that I've experiance was in service less then 30 days and had about 1,600 mile on it. In this industry, when that occurs, the design itself becomes questionable. Keep in mind that I knew nothing about a high/low dog design until I hired a m/c transmission expert to be involved. The first thing out of his mouth was ... ya, it's happening because it's a high/low dog design. No one has used a high/low dog design since the late 60, and many of those transmission back then had the same issues. Basically on some, they didn't want to stay in gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,652 Posts
Greg, Points taken, but hopefully nobody here needs college logic (oxymoron?) to understand, common sense should do just fine. I submit that any GW transmission failure in 2000 miles, or even 50,000 miles has several possibilities: design problems, defective components, improper assembly, operator abuse, etc.. ONLY a complete inspection of each can determine its cause(s). Not sure which car transmissions you are citing, but I recall 1960s-70s Borg Warner T86s that were prone to jumping out of gear, mostly on decel, in 2nd gear. It was most always resultant of having been swapped into a vehicle as a replacement (new or used), without properly re-aligning of the input shaft & engine crankshaft. Back then, limited technology dictated each swap be properly realigned, back to factory specs, and many installers neglected this important step. The T86 were also wimpy, and did not hold up well behind V8s. I have experience with T86, as well as the much beefier T10/T85/T89 family which did not have those maladies, even when improperly swapped in.

Also, never underestimate the power of stupidity. I've read several threads where riders blame heel-toe shifters for transmission failures. My thoughts: just because that shifter gives the ability to stomp through the gears does not mean it's a good idea to do so. Those shifters can can be a tool of convenience, but also a tool for abuse. Similarly, about 6 months ago, I marveled at two new MCs sitting side by side, a Harley and a GoldWing. Up closer, I noticed the GW's left side was trashed. Soon the Harley rider appeared, and told the story. His friend bought the GW, and could hardly even ride a bicycle, yet left the dealer riding like a maniac. It was so scary for the Harley rider, he puled his friend over and cautioned him. But the GW rider continued, and within 80 miles of the dealership laid the bike down. Luckily he wasn't killed. When the GW rider later came along, I mentioned the cliche about old riders versus bold riders, in a light hearted attempt to caution him. He was dismissive, hopped on, and left. I feel for anyone who buys the guy's GW, somewhere down the road.

You make some good points, and I appreciate the info. But still love my 2008, and would ride it anywhere, with confidence. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: jlbc212

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #158 ·
Hicupping at 1,000 miles

Another 2013 F6b came in today from NY for transmission repair. The owner reports buying it new, and he said his started hicupping in 5th with about 1,000 miles on it. As with many, they think it's their fault. I've not recorded its miles yet, but beleive he said it currently has about 16k on the ODM.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
19,236 Posts
Discussion Starter · #159 · (Edited)
After the injectors and fuel pump were replaced, here are pictures of the fuel tank.
Here's what is wrong with this repair. Trying to get the Wing to run, the dealer replaced the fuel pump because it had voltage, and a ground, but it was not pumping. All 6 injecters were replaced because they thought they were plugged. The tank was pumped out and new gas was added However, the problem is that if the injectors are plugged, they got plugged with something ... like rust.

Like all repairs, the inspection process is the most important step, and it starts by looking at the beginning of the fuel system, instead at the middle of it first. In this case, there is rust under the fuel cap. That means the tank and the upper sending unit needs replaced, and any other metal parts in the system that might be rusted also. Once all those parts are replaced, and the rest of the system cleaned, only then should the fuel pump and injectors be replace. Not addressing the cause of why the injectors are plugged, means that they are probably plugged again, and everything that was done before may need to be done all over again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,652 Posts
Here's what is wrong with this repair. Trying to get the Wing to run, the dealer replaced the fuel pump because it had voltage, and a ground, but it was not pumping. All 6 injecters were replaced because they thought they were plugged. The tank was pumped out and new gas was added However, the problem is that if the injectors are plugged, they got plugged with something ... like rust.

Like all repairs, the inspection process is the most important step, and it starts by looking at the beginning of the fuel system, instead at the middle of it first. In this case, there is rust under the fuel cap. That means the tank and the upper sending unit needs replaced, and any other metal parts in the system that might be rusted also. Once all those parts are replaced, and the rest of the system cleaned, only then should the fuel pump and injectors be replace. Not addressing the cause of why the injectors are plugged, means that they are probably plugged again, and everything that was done before may need to be done all over again.
Is that a Florida bike? Looks like some horrendous rust. Maybe salt air exposure?
 
141 - 160 of 161 Posts
Top