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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Go to ride on a GL today with a new Dunlop Runflat on it. It had our shock, and forks serviced with our springs (no AK-20s) and new tapered bearings, it had the Kury brace on it. Thanks to Mike Morse for the extended test drive!

When I first rode it around the parking lot areas in our industrial park, it didn't seem so bad, and didn't really try and do anything particularly good or bad. This is probably most people's impression of it, which is why they continue to use it.

So then I took a quick ride up the freeway one exit which is four miles. I went up to 90+mph.

This is where the CT got bad. The faster you go, the more "locked" straight the steering gets. By normal freeway speed, the bike will not react to steering inputs anymore. It was so solid, it felt like it was in a rut.

"Why is this bad"?

To get out of the way of general debris, or animals, or other hazards that may randomly appear in the road, the bike can't be countersteered out of the way.

The faster I went, the worse it got. By 75 mph, you couldn't barely even get the bike to change lanes. It was very scary. If you really gave the bars a yank, the bike would lean over a little bit, but continue going straight.

By 90mph, the bike would only change lanes if you pushed on the bars, held pressure and went quite a distance.

For this reason alone, the test was over for me, but I had lots of other criteria to test.

So at the end of the freeway run, (Hwy 575 from exit 11 north to exit 15) I got off the long straight off ramp. At the end is a nice tight curve with a concrete triangle dividing it from the forward and left turn lanes. ( this wasn't supposed to be part of a test....) As I came smokin' into there, trailbraking like I normally would on any other bike I have ever ridden through there, the bike turned some, but wouldn't turn anymore, and I found myself running at the island.

I didn't hit it, but it shocked me, because I have never met a bike that I couldn't turn by eventually muscling it.

The CT does roll "off center" easily, but it's more like that because you are sitting on a big marshmellow. It just squishes. But as you try and get it to roll up onto it's corner, it resists progressively, until you can finally get it to hop up onto the corner of the tire. The last part is harder and harder to do as you go faster in a turn.

This isn't a major problem if you are a slow rider, and you are trying to make turns going slowly. If you are trying to ride quickly, it doesn't want to complete a turn. If you tried to go really fast, you would simply crash.

If you don't ride fast, I guess you may not ever notice this problem. If you think you ride fast, and you have never noticed this, well....you don't ride fast. :wink:

In general, it felt like the bike would lean over, but the bike's turning radius did not match the angle the bike was leaning. This was strange.

The bike tire skidded way more easily on downshifts than the motorcycle tire on our stock bike. There is not enough pressure on the contact patch to make it grip the way people think. "More rubber touching the ground" is not better if there is no pressure on the tire.

So I tried slow speed maneuvering around our cul-de-sac, and found it to be acceptable to drive with the CT on it.

Then I pulled out our demo bike, and repeated the slow speed tests. It was immediately apparent just how bad the CT made the bike handle. I didn't notice it initially with the CT, because it was the first wing I had ridden in a few weeks. But the MC tire bike felt like it rolled back and forth on a cloud, and it felt like it had power steering compared to the CT bike.

Did it? Of course not. But it just felt that way after you feel how the CT takes away from the simple easy to drive feeing of the MC tire.

The only single advantage I can see to the CT is the run flat. I think that is a great thing.

Other than that....

it is absolutely, completely, and totally dangerous at freeway speed, and that's the opinion of a natinoal champion roadracer.

At slow speed, it just makes the bike handle like a tank.

If you don't mind driving a tank, and if you don't go fast in a turn ever, and if you don't brake aggressively ever, and if you don't downshift aggressively ever, and if you don't mind running straight over anything you encounter on the road at freeway speed, and if you don't mind the glaring facts that it isn't engineered for the forces a motorcycle generates, and if you don't mind that the bead doesn't seat on the rim properly,

THEN,

A car tire will work great for you. :)

But I still won't endorse or recommend it to you.

:wink:
 

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Well, there you go folks, a totally unbiased, open minded, objective, no preconceived notions review by a national champion roadracer. I would guess this will make this forum obsolete now.

Or maybe not. :chat:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
weengers said:
Well, there you go folks, a totally unbiased, open minded, objective, no preconceived notions review
Correct.

I do not sell motorcycle tires.

I do not sell car tires.

I have nothing to gain by choosing either side.

:)
 

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Now let's see how long it takes the promoters of CT to jump on this. I cannot believe anyone would come up with the CT bit. And all to save some money on buying tires? I guess the gene pool needs a cleaning ever now and then.
 

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:D RIDE SAFE

I haven't tried a bike with a CT yet, but I will and then draw my own conclusions.
 

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Thanks, Max.
I still wish you could've ridden with us when Darth Franken came down to play.
Would've been good to have another pair of eyes aft.
I just got back from Ken's shop and had a lonnnngggg talk with him about tires.
 

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Max, I appreciate this post from someone of your caliber with your credentials. No real surprises here but some very good confirmation. I think it's important for everyone to factor in their own riding style or tendencies and then decide on how that should determine any unorthodox tire choices. 8) Thanks
 

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Most of the review, impression-wise, makes sense to me. I have got some issues with the not being able to change lanes at 90 deal. I think there may be some sort of problem with the peculiar tires chosen for the ride or the proclivities/prejudices of the rider, or some other, unknown, factor. (Sorry Max, calling it as I see it, but I sure as heck will admit you are right if I find it hard to change lanes at 90.)

Anyway, my pal and I came blazin' out of the San Fernando Valley last friday and damned if I cannot swear that I was going 90+ a few times I switched lanes. So I am going to go out and try it again just to make sure that I am not mistaken.

For the record, I am running a Pirelli 195/55-16 runflat on the rear and a Bridgestone G-709 on the front.
 

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If all you are used to is a bike tire then the ct will be a bit unsettling for a while. I have not problem on the boss missing crap in the road or changing lanes though it did take some getting used to. It will stay in a lean until you make it come out, it will also feel like the bike wants to fall over in a curve or turn.

Bottom line is, don't like it, don't use it. I love the ct on my boss and will never go again with a bike tire. On the GW, I don't think I would have put on a ct, on my feej, no way.

Mike
 

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I also run the Pirelli Run Flat,and there is no way I feel any of the hysteria that Max is trying to pawn off here as the way my tire feels under me at any time.

Max you are entitled to your opinion,(I don't happen to believe it!)
But when you rant the way you do,about the use of a C/T, and go on a,What 10-15 mile ride with such a negative outlook before you ever sat on a wing with a C/T on it.
I can't help but believe you were biased going in.
I wouldn't of expected you to say anything but what you did..


Lets be serious here for a minute..I tell anyone who asks me,To give themselves at least 500 miles to get used to the way a C/T feels to them,I'm not talking about a one day ride.Spread it out over,say a couple weeks..Then the actual owner (not a borrowed wing) who has ridden this same bike since it was new,will know weather a C/T is for them or not??

10-15 miles isn't going to tell you squat,I don't care who you think you are..I know you didn't ride that bike like it was yours,If you did then you disrespected someone elses property??
I know I'm very careful when I am riding/driving someone elses property,So how could you be a fair judge of what you just stated,knowing this??? I happen to ride my wing like I stole it-I paid for it!

I always give myself at least two months to be one with the newest bike that I buy..I can can jump on any bike and ride like hell,just like most guys can,But to use the bike to it's fullest,you need to be one with the bike to get the Max (no pun intended) out of the machine..

So with all due respect Max,your little sprint wasn't a fair assessment of what a C/T feel like on your own bike...

I won't say at what speeds I like to play with,But at 90 I can change lanes without any trouble,But 90 is just playing sometimes on some of these CA Feeways..

I have a few friends that are just as numb to the idea of running a C/T,and they drag the crap out of their pegs trying to pull away from me in the twistys...They had to eat crow,when they followed me and had trouble keeping up..
One guy has both of his header shields,what I call all banged to hell,from his aggressive riding style.(not from this ride,but from his riding style) and the other is a veteran MSF instructor that couldn't believe what he saw with my first C/T,and now is running one on his 01...


Look give it a rest already,I and the other guys who are running a C/T and have no trouble with it could care less what you and the other naysayers think of it.Plain and simple.

How many times do you need to READ "A Car Tire isn't for everyone"

You don't want one on your bike,Then that's fine with me.Really!

Just don't tell me is doesn't work,because your so wrong!
 

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MAX,

Greatly appreaciate your report. I did not have the same experience as you switching lanes at high speeds. Very little pressure (but more than MT) and I was around curves and switching lanes...I did not concurr with this part of your experience...maybe it was the psi on yours vs. mine

I do agree, and have written before that high speed is not the favored feature of car tires...I founded them to make my rear too light, inconsistent feels and like I was going to lose it...I am talking 80+ curves

I also concurr in experience with the "powere steering" feel of mottos...I tried riding for a long while with CT twice and everytime I switch back to motto is like WOW! witht the manuverability

My experience also concurrs with your in the comments about "driving slow"....slow is how they work best...CT seem to grip well on slow over wet and gravel...when the bike is on slow its heavy and the wall flex making the CT grip adequate...the higher the speed the more inefficient the shape of the CT becomes, especially on leanings at high speed

Rocky
I like your comments: "its not for everyone"; "it takes time to get used to it cause it is quite different"...there is probably bias in Max's comments but there is bias in everyone, lets face it! But whatever you do with your bias, DO NOT PUT THEM ON YOUR BIKE ... those tires suck!

a....nd since you appear to be an aggressive rider, do you find that the car tire does not grip as well on high speed twisties...I mean 'high speed of 80+'




I still want a tire with the characteristics of a CT and the shape of a motto tire
 

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Thanx Max for the report.. While it may be true that you could lessen the negative effects by running different tires, different pressures etc. the fact remains (and confirmed by most folks using them) that the bike is not as manuverable with a car tire and threrefore not a good choice for most folks out there..

From most of the users on the CT threads, it sounds like you "get used to it" like you would a car with a bad steering box, brakes that pull heavily to one side or a car with the springs cut to lower it so there's no suspension or tire clearance to steer.. Sorry, taking a fairly good handling motorcycle and making handle like a cement mixer doesn't sound like a good idea.. But, to each his/her own..

As far as the BossHoss, it was originally designed for a car tire and doesn't have anything even remotely similar to the geometry of a Goldwing.. If I had one, I'd definatly run a car tire.. I wouldn't trust the MC tire on something that heavy and the "approved" MC tire is an Avon if I remember correctly.. Personally, I wouldn't have an Avon on any motorcycle... Of course I also wouldn't be throwing it around the twisties either!! :lol: :lol:
 

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Guess I better chime in here...

As other's have said, I have no problem moving around a freeway. I have also said, “You do need to counter-steer”. It might be I don't have the sport-bike experience to appreciate the "think and it turns" feeling.

Max, if you ever get another chance and you want to take it, run the CT down a few alleys and over some potholes. Run it on some snow or freezing rain. “Why would anyone do that?” you ask. Sometimes we get stuck in bad conditions. I have yet to hear a naysayer even try to argue the MT will beat a CT in bad conditions.

I would like to see a genuinely interested top-level rider train with a CT ‘Wing on and off the track for a while then run some laps. I think you will find lean angle problems limiting the ‘Wing’s times before either tire reaches its limits. (BTW KA7W, speak for yourself! I will run my CT at 10/10th’s thank you very much! I will lower the pressure a bit so I can mash the tire into the ground better coming out of corners.)

Another thing I have said that other DS’s say isn’t so: I’ve noticed more oscillating at triple-digit speeds with the Goodyear. Other DS’s say theirs are perfectly stable. The Pirelli seems good. I have also introduced oscillations at around 95 changing lanes and upshifting hard at the same time. When I dropped the clutch at about 5 grand in top gear while leaned over, the jerk flexed the tire. As it unflexed, it started the movement. A quick app of the brake brought everything back under control. I will advise making only one change at a time if you are going over 90mph and be careful the first few times you go over 100 to see how yours will react. Or simply obey the damn laws of the road!

Like others have said Max, I appreciate your input. It comes from a different perspective and helps me understand your concerns better. I’m certainly not going to put my CT away because I think it offers many real-world advantages away from the best cornering option. However, I will try to see if I can replicate some of your issues to see how to manage them.

A couple of specifics:

Max said:
In general, it felt like the bike would lean over, but the bike's turning radius did not match the angle the bike was leaning. This was strange.
You might have something here. I don’t have anything but the ‘Wing to compare it to. This could be a limiting factor on a track. At the suggested safe speed and up to twice that east of the Mississippi, it’s not an issue. (Note: a “30mph curve” west of the Mississippi is a whole lot sharper than one east of the Mississippi!) I do want to compare a stock tired ‘Wing though to see what the difference is.



Max said:
The bike tire skidded way more easily on downshifts than the motorcycle tire on our stock bike. There is not enough pressure on the contact patch to make it grip the way people think. "More rubber touching the ground" is not better if there is no pressure on the tire.
I do scratch the rear tire downshifting quite often. I never did on the MT but I rode the bike more gently in those days. (As it gets older, I am abusing it more. ‘Not sure if it’s because I’m getting more comfortable or because I care less about it.) What I have noticed, is when it does slide or spin, it stays much more true in its path. The rounded MT will slide out much easier. Coming out of corners with the tire weighted I “feel” like I can apply more throttle without the tire spinning loose. Here’s where the aforementioned trained rider could turn in precise measurements.

This is getting long. At the very least, we seem to agree that the bike rides different. The guys using the Pirelli say it is most MT-like and I’ve suggested making it the preferred all-around recommendation for most people based on the feed-back. If you’re going to DS a ‘Wing, take some time getting used to it.

Thanks again for the input Max. BTW, I almost had a chance to order your upgrade last night. The local shop has a silver ABS model. They give free installs and 15% discounts on options but refused to match Hal’s prices. Besides, now that I’ve seen it, I think I prefer the Red. I still like the Titanium best – maybe it will come back next year.
 

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Max,

Thanks for your post. Even though I just finished putting a Pirelli Run-Flat under the Wing, I do value your opinion.

Hopefully, tomorrow I'll get to see for myself whether I like it or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The bike I rode had a somewhat cupped E-3 on the front. The rear was the Dunlop runflat 195 (winter?) with 36psi and it was brand new, but well scuffed in.

Rocky,

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

I spent decades of my life riding every model of bike you have ever heard of, and some you haven't. I have literally test driven thousands and thousands of bikes. So many I actually can't imagine. I have personally driven well over 1,000 different Goldwings. I drove HUNDREDS of Goldwings in the last 9 months. I can't imagine anyone in America has driven more GLs last year except for the guy who takes them from the end of the assembly line at the plant! :lol:

I can ride a bike through a parking lot and back and tell you 80% of what's wrong with it. Never mind having to spend several months riding it.

You say:


"10-15 miles isn't going to tell you squat,I don't care who you think you are..."

Ask ARN BUTT how far I rode his bike before I came back and told him his frame was bent.... there's a story for you... and you won't make such an unwitting statement like that about me again. :wink:

As far as having to drive a bike 500 miles to figure out what it's behaving like?

Would you leave your bike and pay a motorcycle shop for two months of labor to diagnose and figure out why your bike wobbles?

At a race track, you sometimes get one lap to evaluate changes, and since you life depends on it, you better be able to evaluate them correctly and clearly.

While testing the CT on the road yesterday:

I hit turns of speeds 5 15, 30, and 50mph each at slow and "quick" paces.
I judged the steering input and maintenance required at each speed.
I travelled at constant throttle of 55,70,80, and 90 mph.
At each speed, I made dramatic countersteering inputs to watch the reaction of the bike and it's ability to steer and not be upset.
I drove the bike on and off the seam of the shoulder at each speed.
I made dramatic braking inputs at each speed.
I judged time and distance required to evade an unforseen object in the road.
I drove the bike for a short period over grated pavement.
I drove the bike for a short period over wake up strips on the side of the freeway.
I judged panic braking performance at normal, around town speed, including the use of downshifting.
I made 3mph full lean circles.
I made grip tests from a standing start
I tested grip while rolling slightly leaned over from 5mph.
I tested for no hands wobbles.

And yes, I did all of this on my 10 mile ride (5 miles freeway, 5 miles town), and with about 15 minutes of back to back testing with the MC tire in the cul-de-sac:

Make no doubt about how I rode Mike's bike. Riding it to it's limits doesn't hurt anything. That's why it has a rev limiter. (Which, by the way, if I am ever test driving a bike, I will likely find.) I don't worry about something happening while I test drive a bike because I have insurance, and in the worst case, I have a whole Wing to loan him! 8)

I did fairly and completely evaluate, at least that brand, of Car Tire.
:)
 

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I can synthesize ALL the CT threads, experiments, opinnions and insights:

We need a touring tire with the characteristics of a CT and the shape of a Motto tire
 

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Let me clear up a few things,before everyone gets the wrong idea.

Yes Max's review was appreciated,But I feel that more seat time should of been allowed,and as you all know every bike is different,they each have their own quirks.So two evenly equipped bikes will handle differently.

Now toss in the same bikes with different brands of Stock round tires,and you'll have differences once again,Now think about the riders skills,and again you'll have vast differences of opinions.and rightly so..

I just believe that to be fair to "Any' tire,you have to log more miles than what was tested by Max..And riding another persons bike wasn't fair to the evaluation in my opinion,because it wasn't Max's bike,before and after a C/T was mounted. If it was,Then he would of had a better feel for the differences between the two after putting on more miles..

We all have different riding styles my reason for saying "A car tire isn't for everyone" And just like our differences with the different brands of M/T's.How many say one brand stinks,and the next guy says he's never had a problem with them..It appears we D/S'ers are the same way.

Yes I do feel the differences between the R/T & the C/T,But my only feeling of it's differences are the changes in the road surfaces going in a straight line,(Patched roads,two sections that aren't completely even type Etc.) I only feel these things when starting from a stop or coming to a stop more than at speed..I'm aware of these things and,they no longer seem to bother me.

Taking long fast sweepers,or tight turns doesn't seem to be any different to me anymore,I can jump on my 2000 SE (E3's)and then on the 1800 (C/T),and feel quite comfortable going the same speed with either one of the bikes..

My stating about my freeway speeds are about my lack of feeling of the resistance that Max had said he felt..Around here in southern CA,if your not doing 85-90 at times,you'll get your butt run over..So traveling at these speeds are the norm at times..While I have brought the bike up a bit,I haven't felt the bike get squirrelly under me..The Bot's on the roads don't even upset the rear? Again,it could be because I'm used to it now after several thousand miles on C/T's??

I bought a Spare wheel and C/T to do my own testing.I just like any of you reading this,read about reviews on one tire brand over another,None of us are the same,and we all feel different things from the same brand of tire..Were not clones,and none of the bikes are either.No two are exactly alike.I found that in my testing that a C/T feels slightly different than the E3 I took off the bike,How much different wasn't a concern to me if I could get just twice the life out of the tread than a R/T..I'm Brutal on tires and brakes on everything I own,always have been and don't bitch when I need to replace either.
On the flipside.I feel that a C/T has more benefits than the R/T,and all my own reasons,you have yours as to why you wouldn't put one on your wing..That's what's great about being an adult,you can make up your own mind what's best for "You"!.


I just read Max's response..And I'll add.......

Max.Although I was never a professional motorcycle road racer like you,I have a pretty good feel for the same things you described.See I was a diagnostic mechanic with cars/trucks for more years than I want to remember..So I think it's safe to say that we both can hop into or on a vehicle and tell the customer what we are feeling and then dig into the issue.I'm in no way saying that your credentials are any less than they are! That we can agree on.
You and I can get a better feel for what's wrong with a Bike/car/truck from our experience in the field.yours with bikes and mine with four wheeled vehicles,same things apply,just a little different geometry.
Most guys only ride one bike for years,and gradually except worn parts as the norm,until we point out the flaws in them to them,then they realize they were on worn parts,after the things were replaced/repaired!.

I also know what your saying about testing on the track,I worked on race cars setting them up,and have tested different settings when the driver would complain.Drivers-Sheeesh.. So we agree on that point as well!

We both had E3's on the front,your test bike and currently on my front wheel (Although mine isn't cupped) Would cupping upset your testing? depends on the rider would be safe to say.

You misunderstood my reference about the riding 500 miles to get used to the feel of the C/T.
No,I wouldn't want anyone to ride my bike for 500 miles for any evaluation,Dealer or not!
My point of saying that,was for the guys who have owned their bike from when it left the dealer,They would know more than anyone,what differences they would feel out of a C/T in 500 miles,To then decide if it was right for them or not.As you know everyday you ride,you ride on different roads than the day before,and traffic patterns are different as well,No two rides down the same roads are the same.Riding a few miles to the average rider isn't enough to evaluate what's right for them..
I certainly wouldn't want someone to rule their life by what I say, Let them try out a C/T for themselves on their own bike for evaluation,and then decide if it's what they are wiling to except,or go back to a R/T?? That's exactly what I did,And I'm experiencing things or lack there of what other D/S'ers are feeling.


Max.Thank you for your review.We have differences in your review,and I'm fine with that.
Have a good day.

Rocky
 

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car tire

well max some say you need to ride a ct more to get used to it. mine is avalible anytime you feel the need to go to the dark side and for as long as you need it. like you said you do have a new loner. i think my legs got shorter after the up grade, mabe there is a way to get it lower lol. mike :twisted: :biker:
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: car tire

mitymax1 said:
i think my legs got shorter after the up grade, mabe there is a way to get it lower lol. mike :twisted: :biker:
When you are down this way again, we can maybe swap bikes, or even just rear wheels for that matter.

Not unless you want to build a ProStock Drag Wing!!! :twisted:

You have the lowest Wing I have ever seen! :shock:
 
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