Well said, and well thought out...

Safe Travels,
Jeff

 

I am hoping you mean direct copies, but not similar yet different.

For example the 18+ belly pans.

Max's is different than WingStuff. That seems allowable.

A direct copy of Max's seems like a good candidate to ban.

But what about the recent one that has a similar plate to Max's, but considerably different mounting. Still mounted to the engine but in different areas.

This is going to be hard.

 

It's an admin judgement call.......most copy-cats are pretty obvious and others it's up to admins decision, and we need to respect that decision.

 

Did I miss something? I didn't notice any of this happening on the forum. I am glad that the mods are cracking down on this practice.

 

I remember a lot of it back in 2018/2019 regarding Helibar risers. Some people got on here proclaiming how fortunate they were to spend < $50 on a Heli knockoff from China.

 

One of the most obvious is Honda Service Manuals. There are copies that look legitimate but they are xerox copies of the real thing.

 

I remember that.

 

Fully support the effort. Thank you!

 

So . . . . no more postings about Cury-yackin' products?

 

You guys are hopping on to a slippery slope.

What about the thread complaining about the Kuryakyn part that was missing? The thread turned into a discussion about 3D printing a part to replace the missing part. The discussion included not only the act of stealing a part design, but a discussion on how to create a 3D scan to accomplish the theft of intellectual property.

I recognize this is a stretch but I am not sure why you are willing to start down this slippery slope.

 

Nothing slippery about it to me. Replacing a missing part for self use is different than posting a link for counterfeit accessories.

 

It used to be the Chinese rip-off artists would take about 6-9 months before coming out with a knock-off part that cost our legitimate manufacturers tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop.

Now they're down to 60-90 days. So basically the original guy has two-three months to recoup their investment. The Chinese belly pan for the 18+ wing is pretty much a direct theft of intellectual property from Max at traxxion.

And that is something I have no problem with the moderators taking issue with...

 

Oftentimes I'll be interested in a product on Amazon listed as being from a well-known manufacturer. But when I read some of the reviews, I often see complaints that the item is not authentic. I assume some of these items are knock offs, but they are not drastically cheaper. Of course, this is Amazon, so you're never really sure about reviews.

 

William Anzik. "'We're talking about blatant theft and patent violations by foreign countries to undercut designers and businesses. We can't stop people from buying that crap, but we can work together to prevent this board from being used to advertise and/or encourage purchase of those knockoff parts."

I thought you guys were busy enough without being the enforcer for other companies. That or maybe it just didn't need to be posted. Just do it. YMMV

 

We're certainly not looking for something to do, but we felt that we first need to let people know about a new policy. If people know about a policy in advance perhaps they won't be surprised when it is enforced. Nobody likes bad news surprises.


Glen

 

Muah ah ahhhh...

 

Judging by the timing, I thought one trigger was the discussion of the possibility of a cheap knock-off of the Traxxion tip-over kit, which cost a small fortune to engineer and produce. It's harmful to the community if small suppliers are discouraged from investing in innovations for us. The mods don't want the forum used to advertise blatant copies.

 

That appears to be the intent, and is no doubt essential to a thriving community. The MODs are spot on with that assessment, and we should wholly support it. Let's be mindful, however, that anyone "creating" such a product should also have the good sense to get a patent (either utility, or design) if they are afraid of "knock-offs." Imitation has, for centuries, been the greatest form of flattery, and will not stop any time soon. Just look inside your tool box. After all, who has the prescient expertise to determine intellectual theft based on a digital sales ad? And a corollary caveat -- never allow any aggrieved manufacturer to post or encourage the posting of fake, and false reviews against the mimicking product. That is perhaps more insidious than the knock-off itself.

 

I bought a used widget recently. Since I considered buying it new, my purchase cost the manufacturer a sale as I didn't buy a new one from them. However, I am glad buying a used one isn't taboo. There are indeed ways to save a fortune without directly supporting a crook.

 

I am very grateful the Admins took time to create a policy to address this matter. They do have more than enough to do, I'm sure. Once forum members know about this new policy, I am sure more will be encouraged to report such posts when they occur.

This shouldn't stop here on this forum. If you participate on other forums for any other hobby or activity, you can encourage the Admins of those forums to create similar policies. It might only take a little effort to make a big difference.

 

As one of the companies that has been relentlessly knocked off by others, thank you.

This means the world to us small guys. Thank you for setting the bar!

 

Here’s an interesting story.. one of my friends worked in the international sales group for the company I worked for. She was very well off financially as was her husband and business associates (Banking, Texas oil, and US politics). They all could and all do own all the luxury high end watches and accessories. When she travelled to Taiwan she was able to make connections and go into the underground watch making world and acquire very high quality counterfeit luxury watches for their friends and family. The watches were more desirable to these boardroom folks than the authentic pieces.…. It is a sport.

 

I'm not disputing the validity or value of this new forum policy. I think it's a good thing. But it's an interesting area to think about. What constitutes "intellectual property" is often arbitrary and self-serving. Every "innovation" is based on something that has come before. Does the first person to have come up with a belly pan get credit, not to mention compensation, for the idea? Is it worse if the company copying an idea is overseas? Is the wound to Max and Lewis less harmful if the copycat is domestic? Just thinking out loud.

 

In reality, a domestic copycat is not less harmful. It‘s still a copycat of a product that is patented by the manufacturer. However, it‘s much easier to go after a domestic copycat manufacturer compared to one who is located outside of the country.

 

I'm not disputing the validity or value of this new forum policy. I think it's a good thing. But it's an interesting area to think about. What constitutes "intellectual property" is often arbitrary and self-serving. Does the first person to come up with a belly pan get credit, not to mention compensation, for the idea? Is it worse if the company copying an idea is overseas? Is the wound to Max and Lewis less harmful if the copycat is domestic?

No, it's not less harmful. The only difference is you at least have the possibility to sue a scumbag in America if you want to go broke trying to "recoup your loss". When Chinese counterfeit you, they are nameless, faceless, addressless, and you have no recourse at all against them. Who are you going to call? The Chinese Communist Party?

 

My Wingstuff saddlebag carpet liners look exactly like the Honda OEM saddlebag liners except of course for the “Wingstuff“ or “Goldwing” embroidered logo.….. just saying.

I guess each might be made of special unique patented carpet and thread.

It’s worth reviewing each specific patent to understand exactly what is patented to insure what is really being violated in any specific counterfeit.

 

My Wingstuff saddlebag carpet liners look exactly like the Honda OEM saddlebag liners except of course for the “Wingstuff“ or “Goldwing” embroidered logo.….. just saying.

I guess each might be made of special unique patented carpet and thread.

It’s worth reviewing each specific patent to understand exactly what is patented to insure what is really being violated in any specific counterfeit.

Honda will crack down on people using the Gold Wing logo on carpet/liners. There was someone doing it on Amazon a few years ago using different colored stitching. They got shut down real quick. The carpet itself, I haven't heard of any issues.

We aren't going to be studying patent law but if the creators come to us about advertising on this site, we can shut those posts down. We'll deal with issues as they come up with the goal of protecting those to design and develop items for our community and support us.

 

What IS interesting...

I had had two patents go live today. The Engine Case Guard, and the Steering Safety Pin.

The Engine Guard is US D1004489. I was shocked to learn that only just over 1 million Design Patents have been issued in all of US history, since the first patent was issued in 1790.

The Safety Pin is US 11,815,112. That's right... less than 12 million Utility Patents have been issued in all of US history!

I was shocked by this... I was thinking there were a million a year.

I will also be awarded a Design Patent on the Safety Pin. They tell you that you will get it, they charge you a bunch of fees, they say it's fully approved, and then randomly about 6 months after it's all done, they finally post on the USPTO.

Gubment...

 

Sadly, I fought patent battles for decades, and learned to be very disappointed in the results. A patent is perhaps useful in the United States, but if you are in a global marketplace, you have no defense. NONE.

My company spent over $20MM defending a patent for a molecule and its manufacturing methods and trade secrets. We would fly our lawyers to China for the appointed court dates, and they would sit outside the courtroom and never be admitted, only to be dismissed after the "hearing" had occurred. Multiple times.

We took our case to the U.S. Government and we surprisingly won our case. So what did $20MM get us? A temporary ban on Chinese counterfeit products in the U.S. for a few years, but they were able to manufacture, distribute, and sell our products everywhere else in the world, because the rest of the world doesn't care about U.S. patents, and a patent is only a way of telegraphing to the world exactly how your product works anyway.

The Chinese government has very modern Intellectual Property (IP) laws on their books, and they have for quite some time. But, they are NEVER PUT INTO USE. What is happening, and has been happening for most of my lifetime thanks to Jack Welch and GE starting the "great outsourcing movement" is the largest transfer of wealth and capability in human history.

And we are all sitting by and watching it happen.

 

It’s my belief the only real value of a patent is if it can be sold outright or royalties collected. Too many folks believe the value is in protecting their individual right to be a single source supplier. It may be true legally but it has no real value. tamathumper‘s thread entry above is spot on. US patents broadcast the intellectual property across the globe so people can even more easily copy them.

Then there’s the “what’s the real harm question”. It’s incorrect to assume that 100% of the buyers of a known copy would have bought the original for a much higher price if the copy was not available…..or any at all.

 

Please list all of the US Patent Numbers that you are the owner and inventor of... since you are so knowledgeable on this topic, I'm sure you have several.

 

OK, this escalated quickly! Try to do what we thought was the right thing and look what happens. No good deed goes unpunished.

This is not the Hot Box. There's nothing more to be said here. It is locked.