[FL_RedWing]

Judging by the timing, I thought one trigger was the discussion of the possibility of a cheap knock-off of the Traxxion tip-over kit, which cost a small fortune to engineer and produce. It's harmful to the community if small suppliers are discouraged from investing in innovations for us. The mods don't want the forum used to advertise blatant copies.

That appears to be the intent, and is no doubt essential to a thriving community. The MODs are spot on with that assessment, and we should wholly support it. Let's be mindful, however, that anyone "creating" such a product should also have the good sense to get a patent (either utility, or design) if they are afraid of "knock-offs." Imitation has, for centuries, been the greatest form of flattery, and will not stop any time soon. Just look inside your tool box. After all, who has the prescient expertise to determine intellectual theft based on a digital sales ad? And a corollary caveat -- never allow any aggrieved manufacturer to post or encourage the posting of fake, and false reviews against the mimicking product. That is perhaps more insidious than the knock-off itself.

 

[Max McAllister]

And a corollary caveat -- never allow any aggrieved manufacturer to post or encourage the posting of fake, and false reviews against the mimicking product. That is perhaps more insidious than the knock-off itself.

He's talking about me. He's been trolling me on this topic for years.

I DO THIS ALL THE TIME. I HIGHLY ENDORSE IT. I TEACH ALL OF MY SMALL BUSINES FRIENDS HOW TO DO IT, do it on my channel, through my business and through any form of social media I have access to.

It is the one and only method most inventors and small businessmen have to fight the Chinese, and I take pride in developing this method of fighting them.

What type of person would suggest that fighting against faceless, nameless, address-less, shameless, despicable thieving communist criminals using ANY MEANS AVAILABLE was anything other than RIGHTEOUS and GOOD?

I'll let people who read this do the math on that.

To suggest that my only available act of resistance is more insidious than the untouchable criminals in China gutting American inventors?

 

[tamathumper]

Sadly, I fought patent battles for decades, and learned to be very disappointed in the results. A patent is perhaps useful in the United States, but if you are in a global marketplace, you have no defense. NONE.

My company spent over $20MM defending a patent for a molecule and its manufacturing methods and trade secrets. We would fly our lawyers to China for the appointed court dates, and they would sit outside the courtroom and never be admitted, only to be dismissed after the "hearing" had occurred. Multiple times.

We took our case to the U.S. Government and we surprisingly won our case. So what did $20MM get us? A temporary ban on Chinese counterfeit products in the U.S. for a few years, but they were able to manufacture, distribute, and sell our products everywhere else in the world, because the rest of the world doesn't care about U.S. patents, and a patent is only a way of telegraphing to the world exactly how your product works anyway.

The Chinese government has very modern Intellectual Property (IP) laws on their books, and they have for quite some time. But, they are NEVER PUT INTO USE. What is happening, and has been happening for most of my lifetime thanks to Jack Welch and GE starting the "great outsourcing movement" is the largest transfer of wealth and capability in human history.

And we are all sitting by and watching it happen.

 

[Dundertaker]

That appears to be the intent, and is no doubt essential to a thriving community. The MODs are spot on with that assessment, and we should wholly support it. Let's be mindful, however, that anyone "creating" such a product should also have the good sense to get a patent (either utility, or design) if they are afraid of "knock-offs." Imitation has, for centuries, been the greatest form of flattery, and will not stop any time soon. Just look inside your tool box. After all, who has the prescient expertise to determine intellectual theft based on a digital sales ad? And a corollary caveat -- never allow any aggrieved manufacturer to post or encourage the posting of fake, and false reviews against the mimicking product. That is perhaps more insidious than the knock-off itself.

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand how a patent works or why it exists. The fact that copies exist doesn't make it right and when found, reputable retailers and this forum should not allow them.

Pointing out that something is a knockoff in a review is part of what anyone wanting the "genuine article" should want. If someone still wants to buy it ....caveat emptor. I'd also point out that most websites expressly prohibit known fakes and copies as part of their TOS.

FL_RedWing; if the owner of the patent and product can't point out that someone is knocking off their design who can? In one instance the con artists actually used the original artwork from the original product's website! You don't have to be a mind reader to know your original artwork and images...i.e. the EBAYER wasn't even presenting THEIR PRODUCT on the page, not a hard decision for EBAY to make and one that protects its customers. It's not "Prescient" it's paying attention.
Anyone with common sense would understand that self-preservation and exercising the right of the patent holder isn't "insidious" and pointing out the CON is the easiest way to fight back.

Go play your tiny violin's sad sad song for the rip-off artists and scammers being "mistreated" somewhere else.

 

[Zee Fifty]

It’s my belief the only real value of a patent is if it can be sold outright or royalties collected. Too many folks believe the value is in protecting their individual right to be a single source supplier. It may be true legally but it has no real value. tamathumper‘s thread entry above is spot on. US patents broadcast the intellectual property across the globe so people can even more easily copy them.

Then there’s the “what’s the real harm question”. It’s incorrect to assume that 100% of the buyers of a known copy would have bought the original for a much higher price if the copy was not available…..or any at all.

 

[Max McAllister]

It’s my belief the only real value of a patent is if it can be sold outright or royalties collected. Too many folks believe the value is in protecting their individual right to be a single source supplier. It may be true legally but it has no real value. tamathumper‘s thread entry above is spot on. US patents broadcast the intellectual property across the globe so people can even more easily copy them.

Then there’s the “what’s the real harm question”. It’s incorrect to assume that 100% of the buyers of a known copy would have bought the original for a much higher price if the copy was not available…..or any at all.

Please list all of the US Patent Numbers that you are the owner and inventor of... since you are so knowledgeable on this topic, I'm sure you have several.

 

[Max McAllister]

Then there’s the “what’s the real harm question”. It’s incorrect to assume that 100% of the buyers of a known copy would have bought the original for a much higher price if the copy was not available…..or any at all.

This is the reason Policies like the new one created by this forum are important. There are people with no integrity who find any way they can to justify purchasing counterfeit goods, simply to benefit themselves, without any concern of the cost to the person who creatded/invented the thing.

The harm is to the patent holder. Period. You can make any BS excuse you want to justify you supporting the Chinese.

You're correct, people will screw inventors if given the chance. THE POINT IS THAT THEY SHOULD NEVER BE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO CHOOSE.

It has NOTHING to do with the fact that they may have never bought the CORRECTLY PRICED original item. If they can't afford it, then the just don't get to have it. Tough shoot.

I don't care if people can't afford my patented products. Not everyone in the world gets to have the same experience in life.


There's another level of scumbaggery here... and that's the person who would knowingly buy a Chinese counterfeit for their Goldwing. Riding around in FREE COUNTRIES on their $30,000 motorcycle talking on their $300 bluetooth headset out of their $1,000 helmet into their $1,000 cell phone, with their identically kitted up wife on the back telling their buddy that $279 for a "piece of metal is a scam".

Then searching out and buying a stolen copy made by a Chinese worker who makes $100 A MONTH, who will never even SEE A GOLDWING, never mind ride one, or OWN one. They live the life of a cockroach, and you personally contribute to their horrible life by keeping the market for stolen goods flowing. The breath poisoned air, touch poison chemicals, and no one cares whether they live or die.... all while making the thief who owns the factory truly rich in a way you'll never know.

Buying one Chinese counterfeit does damage all over the Earth.

THAT'S THE HARM.

 

[PoorUB]

"It wouldn't be that hard for ME to copy one. I have access to a multi-million dollar machine shop where I used to worked as A MACHINIST, I get to use it for free, I get to use scrap material for free, I know how to run the machinery, I am retired, my time no longer has any monetary value to me, and however long it takes doesn't matter because it would a fun thing to try and do as a project".

Then I wouldn't even have noticed!
😅

I understand what you are saying. A lot guys think they know, but they don't I love watching hacks on YouTube, making videos on how to do a repair and doing more damage. A guy needs to know his limitations.

I used to get beat up by engine builders on a Harley form I was on. I was trained as a heavy equipment mechanic and although I never got a job as one, I over the years I did a lot of wrenching. One guy was giving me crap about how hard it was to rebuild a Harley Twin Cam engine, implying I wasn't up to it. I asked him if he knew how to split a John Deere 4020 and rebuild the power shift transmission as I had done that for a guy I knew. I told him I think the HD Twin Cam would be pretty easy in comparison!

I have had a very universal past!

 

[ssncob]

Let's not over complicate this...

I agree with William. Let's knock off the vitriol. Theft is theft - whether it's someone stealing your helmet off your bike while you're in the gas station bathroom or your intellectual property that you spent time and money on.

Support who you want. Me - I'm all for a bargain. But I'm also for the business man that's trying to support me, his family and his employees with the products I want and use. And that's why, personally, I have, use and endorse Max at Traxxion and Lewis at Electrical Connection's products.

 

[Glockjock]

OK, this escalated quickly! Try to do what we thought was the right thing and look what happens. No good deed goes unpunished.

This is not the Hot Box. There's nothing more to be said here. It is locked.