[Navy Gator]

My guess is- due to all the complications involved with everything that’s made Bluetooth headsets complicated since day one and most likely to continue with headset communication complications,
I have an alternative solution -CB radio communication ain’t going away because it works anywhere and it’s simple (yet no longer cheap)

CBs are indeed simpler to use.

But they are not a panacea

• comms quality is much poorer compared to mesh (aka wifi) and cell
• effective rider to rider range is shorter than mesh and cell
• group end to end comms range is extremely limited compared to mesh and cell
• higher cost
• requires an audio management system built into the bike for full rider integration

The other consideration as you mentioned is that, unlike CBs, headsets are asked to do far more than just be a comms radio.

A more accurate comparison for a headset would be with an audio management system that has an integrated CB because that is really what the headsets are doing.

While all the hoops to jump through to use the current generation of headsets can be very frustrating.....

...I think we are still in the infancy of headset capabilities for bike to bike comms / rider - passenger comms / managing inputs from multiple devices.

I believe headset capability and connectivity will slowly but surely get sorted out and become easier to use.
Just consider how far headsets have come in the past 7 or 8 years in capability and performance. No one wants to go back to ol' BT intercom.
Will it every be plug and play (just turn it on and it works)...probably not due to all the variables with phones, bikes, nav systems, cameras, etc

Cudos to Sena for trying to solve the line of sight problem that applies to both CBs and mesh.

If only they would build a handgrip mounted Push To Talk button for mesh intercom instead of relying on voice (cough/sneeze/singing) mic activation.....

 

[kwthom]

<...>
I have an alternative solution -CB radio communication ain’t going away because it works anywhere and it’s simple (yet no longer cheap)

Ooooh, sorry. 📻

That's 1980's/1990's technology. Sure, it's possible to have it on Luxo-barge bikes, but they simply don't physically fit on...every other motorcycle in the fleet. There's enough complaints over the last couple few decades about how poorly CB works on the Wing, since back in the 1990's. Changing physics is...impossible.

Because, they're not attached to a motorcycle. I can take my $1000 of helmet/comm gear, along with my cell phone in my pocket of my jacket, and get on any motorcycle and have this WAVE/mesh technology with me.

Today. Right now. That's never been the case with using CB's, has it?

Ubiquitous is going to beat simple. Whether or not this technology is it is yet to be determined.

EDIT: The FCC (yeah, that group...) really screwed this all over. Back in the 1990's, it was tried to get FM capability as a legal, authorized emission for 11m CB radios. It was denied, and only in subsequent attempts (pushed by CB radio manufacturers) did CB having both AM and FM capability become legal...in 2021.

Yeah, about 30 years too late.

 

[Johnny Jon]

That's 1980's/1990's technology. Sure, it's possible to have it on Luxo-barge bikes, but they simply don't physically fit on...every other motorcycle in the fleet. There's

Ever hear of J&M CB handlebar mounted CB that could fit any and all motorcycles or ANYTHING with handlebars? They worked flawlessly if installed correctly (I worked on several friends bikes that they were NOT installed correctly) and if you knew how to tweak and modify them you could get 5-100 miles range.
The problem with motorcycle cb’s never was the cb, it was typically the guy installing and using it. Along comes Bluetooth headsets and for many functions they work great, but for communication they are lacking in many ways and too complicated, also- I’ve NEVER had to upgrade or download new software in a CB because there isn’t any

 

[kwthom]

Okay, look, you can have the final word, but this has exactly zero to do with the topic, so...I'm done.

Ever hear of J&M CB handlebar mounted CB that could fit any and all motorcycles or ANYTHING with handlebars?

Sure, they made several versions of these, but basically a modified walkie-talkie was the initial design of the device. Later, additional functions were added such as an intercom. Again, as you note, the challenge was getting the antenna system properly functioning. Most riders that I knew back then weren't really into dealing with all of the limitations. Just like today.

I tried telling that to John L. way back when, but... For the few that could live with those, it was effective - 20 years ago.

I see that J&M stopped offering this item many years ago...hmmm, wonder why? What did they replace it with? An FM handheld GMRS radio? Could that be a better mousetrap for bike-to-bike communication? Why wasn't that found on more bikes? Could it be a little issue from jurisdiction to jurisdiction called licensing? Honda, being the global country they are, has to market their machines (and accessories) to all of the markets they decide to enter for a 'Wing. That's why they (and all of the other motorcycle manufacturers today) continue to market their machines with communication relics of the past.

At the end of the day, CB is simply the lowest common denominator.

As I wrote earlier, ubiquitous is going to beat simple. Whether or not this technology is it is yet to be determined.

 

[Johnny Jon]

I see that J&M stopped offering this item many years ago...hmmm, wonder why? What did they replace it with? An FM handheld GMRS radio? Could that be a better mousetrap for bike-to-bike communication?

I agree with everything you say here and we both know which mousetrap you are referring to . It would have been nice if the FCC would have replaced the CB radio classification rules with the GMRS and not require licenses to operate but—-

 

[Big_Bird]

I've been going through a not-insignificant amount of butt pain to get the half dozen marshals I need for an event to get up and running on Zello for smartphone "radio" and Glympse for sharing location. I am very interested in this Wave thing. It looks like it does all that and a bag of chips, easy. Though Sena Ride Connected had a good story on paper, too. Then it sucked. Fingers crossed this doesn't.

You're still going to need a headset of some sort to make it all work in your helmet as you roll along. It will be interesting to see how their decisions to make it open or not influence their market share in the long run.

As soon as you jump onto the mobile data backbone, I see no reason to put a 5 mile cap on things. It can be global. I bet that is not a real tech or legal limitation, or a marketing decision to introduce some limit and gut their utility because they didn't want to beat the snot out of Cardo too fiercely, but rather just some garbled in translation faux spec speak that will go by the wayside.

 

[sunny_gv01]

I've been going through a not-insignificant amount of butt pain to get the half dozen marshals I need for an event to get up and running on Zello for smartphone "radio" and Glympse for sharing location. I am very interested in this Wave thing. It looks like it does all that and a bag of chips, easy. Though Sena Ride Connected had a good story on paper, too. Then it sucked. Fingers crossed this doesn't.

You're still going to need a headset of some sort to make it all work in your helmet as you roll along. It will be interesting to see how their decisions to make it open or not influence their market share in the long run.

As soon as you jump onto the mobile data backbone, I see no reason to put a 5 mile cap on things. It can be global. I bet that is not a real tech or legal limitation, or a marketing decision to introduce some limit and gut their utility because they didn't want to beat the snot out of Cardo too fiercely, but rather just some garbled in translation faux spec speak that will go by the wayside.

The 5 mile is limit is like the channel 1 open mesh who anyone can join. The 5 mile limit does not exist if you add a friend, ie Private ,Mesh. If you add the friend, my understanding is that it is virtually limitless.

The app limitation as of now it that : there is no group feature as of nos, so as more people join it will become a mess for communications with loads of cross talk. Right now, we lazy riders run default channel 1 and only few times we end up in cross talk with other rider groups , because the range is like .5 mile. With 5 mile range, as this becomes popular cross talk will become an issue.

But @kwthom mentioned that Ver 2 coming out soon will have group functionality, so that is good.

In all I see this as a positive development.

There were such app in the past, but with Sena $$ muscle behind it , looks like this might be the winner...

 

[kwthom]

<...>
As soon as you jump onto the mobile data backbone, I see no reason to put a 5 mile cap on things. It can be global. I bet that is not a real tech or legal limitation, or a marketing decision to introduce some limit and gut their utility because they didn't want to beat the snot out of Cardo too fiercely, but rather just some garbled in translation faux spec speak that will go by the wayside.

Sena is limiting their infrastructure backbone at the onset of this technology...keeping me in AZ and you in MD from having that 'bike-to-bike' chat, when a phone call is probably a more effective medium for communicating like that.

What are people interested in, while using a communicator? Keeping in "active" contact with the rest of their group of riders. Sena is arbitrarily using that distance limit for capacity, I'd wager.

 

[Big_Bird]

Well the glossy overview here throws a things into the mix.

The Best Motorcycle & Action Sport Bluetooth Devices | Sena

Sena's motorcycle Bluetooth communication devices and video imaging systems are designed to inspire your pursuit of adventure. Find out how here.

www.sena.com

1) "Wave Intercom eliminates distance and device limitations, connecting riders with anyone, almost anywhere in the world. "

2) There is the geo-based intercom to try to speak to anyone within 1 mile. It strikes me as sort of like the we're-all-on-mesh-1 thing now. Just with a bit more oomph.

3) The friends-based intercom advertises "Enjoy continuous, secure connections regardless of location." That could scratch my itch.

4) Then the mesh-to-Wave conversion is dependent on mesh and cell data performance.

I don't immediately see the magic number 5 miles shouted out here. I look forward to fiddling with this in the near future.

 

[Fred H.]

I'm a little surprised Sena has released yet another Mesh version (3.0) that isn't compatible with the earlier Sena mesh systems. Does this mean next year when they release Mesh 4.0, I'll have to again buy new headsets? It's bad enough that Sena and Cardo can't talk, now we have even more compatibility issues.

I wish someone would make a bluetooth headset that simply used a FRS transmitter and PTT switch for bike to bike comm. Rider to passengar could talk on bluetooth, and if you needed bike-to-bike you'd just use the FRS. It would solve all the interoperability issues between brands and you wouldn't have to play all the games trying to connect. PTT control would also solve all the issues of inadvertant transmission (sneeze, wind, burp, cough, etc).

Someday these companies will come to the realization that all bike-to-bike comm needs to be on a PTT switch.

 

[Johnny Jon]

I wish someone would make a bluetooth headset that simply used a FRS transmitter and PTT switch for bike to bike comm. Rider to passengar could talk on bluetooth, and if you needed bike-to-bike you'd just use the FRS

That makes waaaay to much sense and it would work too good, besides the fact that they intend for you to buy the newer version every year that is only compatible with another newer version and most definitely NOT with a competitors model.

 

[Fred H.]

That makes waaaay to much sense and it would work too good, besides the fact that they intend for you to buy the newer version every year that is only compatible with another newer version and most definitely NOT with a competitors model.

Therein lies the rub.

 

[Big_Bird]

I'm a little surprised Sena has released yet another Mesh version (3.0) that isn't compatible with the earlier Sena mesh systems. Does this mean next year when they release Mesh 4.0, I'll have to again buy new headsets? It's bad enough that Sena and Cardo can't talk, now we have even more compatibility issues.

I wish someone would make a bluetooth headset that simply used a FRS transmitter and PTT switch for bike to bike comm. Rider to passengar could talk on bluetooth, and if you needed bike-to-bike you'd just use the FRS. It would solve all the interoperability issues between brands and you wouldn't have to play all the games trying to connect. PTT control would also solve all the issues of inadvertant transmission (sneeze, wind, burp, cough, etc).

Someday these companies will come to the realization that all bike-to-bike comm needs to be on a PTT switch.

Some almost-there contenders:

1) No FRS. Free smartphone app Zello works well with your BT headset (either Cardo or Sena) and uses cell data (coverage required) to give you walkie-talkie features on a channel you can make as open or private as you want. It works perfectly with a <$30 PTT from Pryme. There's another app Discord that some people like, but AFAIK it's not PTT friendly.

2) No Bluetooth. Wired Rugged Radio headsets are super reliable. Modular harness with jumpers for most radios.

I've got a helmet I use for some events with both Sena and a Rugged headsets bodged into it. So that checks all your blocks.

In the meantime, capitalism is at work. Maybe Sena will take over.

 

[Jack2]

I'm a little surprised Sena has released yet another Mesh version (3.0) that isn't compatible with the earlier Sena mesh systems. Does this mean next year when they release Mesh 4.0, I'll have to again buy new headsets? It's bad enough that Sena and Cardo can't talk, now we have even more compatibility issues.

I wish someone would make a bluetooth headset that simply used a FRS transmitter and PTT switch for bike to bike comm. Rider to passengar could talk on bluetooth, and if you needed bike-to-bike you'd just use the FRS. It would solve all the interoperability issues between brands and you wouldn't have to play all the games trying to connect. PTT control would also solve all the issues of inadvertant transmission (sneeze, wind, burp, cough, etc).

Someday these companies will come to the realization that all bike-to-bike comm needs to be on a PTT switch.

i was considering replacing my Sena SRL with the mesh version of Sena’s SRL. Your report has just killed that idea. Looks like SENA uses the same philosophy that drives the computer operating systems business and why not? The founders are billionaires today.

 

[Fred H.]

i was considering replacing my Sena SRL with the mesh version of Sena’s SRL. Your report has just killed that idea. Looks like SENA uses the same philosophy that drives the computer operating systems business and why not? The founders are billionaires today.

The mesh is definitely a step up from the old bluetooth intercom. I just wish they would pick a format and stick with it, and not keep changing it every other year.

My biggest single complaint with ALL of the bluetooth headsets is the problem of inadvertent transmission because they don't have a push-to-talk capability. Anyone who's been around radios for more than 10 minutes knows that transmissions should always be initiated intentionally via a button push to avoid accidental transmissions. I've heard from one group where one guy likes to sing in his helmet to his music. You can imagine what this does to group communications. I've heard another report from a group about a heavy breather that constantly trips his mic.

In theory, the new Wave app sounds like a nice way to increase distance. Not sure how well its actually going to work in practice thought.

 

[kwthom]

<...>
I don't immediately see the magic number 5 miles shouted out here. I look forward to fiddling with this in the near future.

Five mile number mentioned in their spam-filled forum: https://community.sena.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/34766470786580-WAVE-Intercom-App-Now-Available

Geo-Based WAVE Intercom initiates a connection based on your geographic location. Riders within the WAVE Zone, which is a radius of 5 miles (8 km), can connect instantly in a group intercom by double tapping the Mesh Intercom Button. This means that riders need to be within this radius together to start an intercom conversation. Once the intercom is started, users on your Friends List will remain connected regardless of distance. However, those not on your Friends List will be disconnected if they move more than 6 miles (10 km) away.

 

[Big_Bird]

@Fred H. to your points about compatibility and PTT.

For PTT, yes, it is the way. Being able to turn off your mic on mesh is better than nothing but not by much. It would be spectacular if the Sena Wave app works with 3rd party PTTs. I've used both of the ones from Pryme listed here on Zello's accessories page and they're excellent. I see the price has gone up to $35 since I last looked. Oh well.

If everything had to be backward compatible we'd still be running with Bluetooth. Or whatever was before that.

From what I saw about Mesh 3.0 devices, they still work with 2.0. It's just that they only hit their 3.0 stride (not sure exactly what that is) when everyone is on the new stuff.

I am no fan of Sena's public beta roll-out approach and happy to bash them. However, I find it hard to beat them up about their mesh pseudo-backward compatibility. I'll give them a nod for providing the software update for 30k that gave them access to the 50 mesh updates. Also for the trade-in program that let you bootstrap up your 20 to mesh. Finally, I can pair with someone using an ancient BT intercom and serve as their gateway into the mesh. I'll add a new trade-in program for the 60 to my Christmas list.

That's some pretty decent service life out of a decade+ year old consumer electronics gizmo.

 

[Navy Gator]

i was considering replacing my Sena SRL with the mesh version of Sena’s SRL. Your report has just killed that idea. Looks like SENA uses the same philosophy that drives the computer operating systems business and why not? The founders are billionaires today.

Hi Jack

The need to buy a new headset for each major update is not always the case.

The word on the street is that Sena has already started rolling out updates for most of the Mesh 2.0 capable headsets and devices that will upgrade them to Mesh 3.0 and full Wave compatible.

That includes the SRL+Mesh.
If your Shoei helmet can support the SRL+Mesh physical configuration, I highly recommend upgrading, especially if you have a SRL and not the SRL 2

Some of the early Neotech I and II, GT Air I & II, and J-Cruise I & II helmets can not support the SRL+Mesh physical configuration. Make sure to confirm your helmet is compatible.

 

[Navy Gator]

@Fred H. to your points about compatibility and PTT.

For PTT, yes, it is the way. Being able to turn off your mic on mesh is better than nothing but not by much. It would be spectacular if the Sena Wave app works with 3rd party PTTs. I've used both of the ones from Pryme listed here on Zello's accessories page and they're excellent. I see the price has gone up to $35 since I last looked. Oh well.

If everything had to be backward compatible we'd still be running with Bluetooth. Or whatever was before that.

From what I saw about Mesh 3.0 devices, they still work with 2.0. It's just that they only hit their 3.0 stride (not sure exactly what that is) when everyone is on the new stuff.

I am no fan of Sena's public beta roll-out approach and happy to bash them. However, I find it hard to beat them up about their mesh pseudo-backward compatibility. I'll give them a nod for providing the software update for 30k that gave them access to the 50 mesh updates. Also for the trade-in program that let you bootstrap up your 20 to mesh. Finally, I can pair with someone using an ancient BT intercom and serve as their gateway into the mesh. I'll add a new trade-in program for the 60 to my Christmas list.

That's some pretty decent service life out of a decade+ year old consumer electronics gizmo.

Mesh 3.0 and Mesh 2.0 are incompatible

San Diego Gold Wing group just learned that the hard way.

Headsets with 3.0 still have 2.0 capability but 2.0 has to be manually selected. The default is 3.0. Selection Can be done via the app. There may be button pushes on the headset to go to 2.0 but I have not looked into that yet.

 

[Big_Bird]

Mesh 3.0 and Mesh 2.0 are incompatible

San Diego Gold Wing group just learned that the hard way.

Headsets with 3.0 still have 2.0 capability but 2.0 has to be manually selected. The default is 3.0. Selection Can be done via the app. There may be button pushes on the headset to go to 2.0 but I have not looked into that yet.

Good clarification. But clarifying your clarification, when a lot of people read "they are incompatible" they just throw in the towel and say they don't work. But parsing the info you provided, 3.0 devices do work with 2.0 devices if you pat your tummy and rub your head. And they're throwing a 3.0 life line to some 2.0 devices. So they kinda do work.

So it's a bit of a Clintonesque discussion of what the meaning of 'incompatible' is. 🤣